3.5 Stat Blocks Kill my creativity

[jasper]

I have very rarely stated out a npc in any edition of D&D. Why? because I did not need to know he had Feat +2 back stabbing if he was only going to be on the scene for 5 minutes. In fact I think only maybe 5% of my npc are every stat because unless they going to be a recurring guest star why go to the trouble.

 

[two]

I have very rarely stated out a npc in any edition of D&D. Why? because I did not need to know he had Feat +2 back stabbing if he was only going to be on the scene for 5 minutes. In fact I think only maybe 5% of my npc are every stat because unless they going to be a recurring guest star why go to the trouble.

Well, that's not what this thread is talking about.

This isn't about stats for "gone in a second" NPC's. Nobody bothers with them.

It's about NPC's that might be around a while; that might get into a fight or two; that might have to set an ambush for the PC's, interact with them, etc.

Am I the only one that feels nervous doing 35 points of damage to the PC, because my gut told me it was roughly the right amount of damage that would be done by the NPC, which kills the PC by one point? Naturally, my gut has been wrong before, many times.

Or issuing a DC24 finger of death, without going through all the DC boost checks to make sure it's ok? (and the PC dies after rolling a 23)?

More to the point, what the heck IS my Wizard16 going to do in a given round? What spells does he have? If the party has cast a silence field, does he have silent spell? Does he have Dim. Door prepared, or Acid Fog? Can he scry easily, or is that a forbidden school? Is the wiz a point blank shot/precise shot/ ranged touch specialize, or a blaster, or an illusionist, if so what sort? Shadow conjuration? Other? Does he have some cohorts around? Potions? What healing is available?

These are the sorts of questions you simply cannot answer without preparation, without taking some often non-trivial time.

 

[just__al]

D&D really, really needs a good, workable computer program. Of course, we've known this since AT least 2000...

I'm pretty happy with DM Genie, I just wish it was easier to use with the newer material.

 

[Henry]

First of all, let's please be more considerate of one another. Telling someone they're "full of it" is not helpful to the conversation.

You can whip up a generic CR 25 NPC with the absolute minimum required stats in 15 minutes, maybe. But this isn't a full (or even a partial) stat block by any means, and worse yet:

The CR25 NPC you come up with will be totally cookie-cutter.

The NPC will be incredibly weak; unoptimized; slap-dash; and not much fun (I suspect) to pound into the ground.

What about magic items? You simply can't slap those together for a CR25 NPC. You must think about it; minimally, how did the fighter-type make it so high vs. high level magic? Does he specialize in anti-magic? Are his saves through the roof? Does he have other tricks?

What about movement? Ranged attacked? Flying? Ethereal perhaps? Skills? Don't get me started on feats -- how many feats does that CR25 fighter type have anyway? What about classes? Ranger2/Rogue2/Fighter21? Something else?

What about tactics? Ways to take on (for example) a run-of-the-mill 18th level wizard?

You simply can't put all this together in 15 min. Impossible. You just can't. At least, if you don't want all your NPC's to look, feel, act, and do the same things.

It seems you're assuming that all NPCs should be statted up like PCs if you want them to be effectual. I disagree. They are effective for their purpose - which is to challenge the PCs without killing them outright. I won't go to the attacks and damage, since that doesn't concern you as much as special abilities. Even with special abilities, you can make opponents with greatly different feel. A Spiked-chain wielding Ogre warrior will feel very different from a War Troll, especially when the PCs keep getting tripped from 20 feet away with one, and have to come up with some acid attacks to have a HOPE of killing the latter.

A high-level wizard only needs about 6 spells per individual NPC - if he's an opponent, he likely won't last more than 10 rounds anyway. And if one wizard casts a series of lightning spells, while another focuses on holding spells, the players nor you don't need to know what his cantrips are, nor his 1st or 2nd level spells, for that matter - they only need to know about the evocations he cast, or if you have a player who's a counterspeller, the spell he's currently casting.

I do not forego stat blocks completely, as I said before - when I stat up a major NPC, I usually use a program such as PCgen, or a piece of paper, and stat him up fully, because I put as much into him as the PCs do theirs. But it's doable either way.

Whatever I, S'mon, or other DM's here on this thread say will likely not convince you, but all I can say is that I can do it, I've seen it done, and I just played a game this weekend where half of the opponents were DM'ed in just this fashion (a round-robin DM game with maximum 5 minutes prep time).

 

[just__al]

The other technique of which I make frequent use is the "file off the serial numbers" approach. For instance, just a few weeks ago, I needed a band of 1st-level warriors.

Jump to the "orc" entry in the MM. They function well enough as slightly stronger-than-average human warriors, if you ignore the light sensitivity.

YOINK!!!

 

[Gundark]

D&D really, really needs a good, workable computer program. Of course, we've known this since AT least 2000...

etools from code monkey publishing....I can't say enough good about it....
I had the problem of stating out guys too...I have to say that this program makes it waaayyy easier, a few clicks and I'm done. I used to have the same problem that the original poster had....until etools

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

" I find it took me about 15 minutes to create an epic NPC for my 25th level party, which can be plenty time consuming."

Sorry, but bull.

Seriously, you are full of it.

Wow.

Two's psychic! He knows exactly what everyone else has done when it comes to generating NPCs.

I'm impressed.

 

[gizmo33]

First of all, let's please be more considerate of one another. Telling someone they're "full of it" is not helpful to the conversation.

I agree. I think the problem though is that people are involved in the conversation who have vastly different expectations and experiences with the system. That shouldn't cause people to lose their cool though. One thing that probably should have been agreed upon from the beginning is whether or not it's important to have a fully statted NPC. If one doesn't think that it's important, then I'm not sure what there is to say to someone who does, and vice versa.

It seems you're assuming that all NPCs should be statted up like PCs if you want them to be effectual.

He seemed to say both - two of the examples were about killing PCs - so I think an "estimated" NPC can run the risk of being overly powerful as well.

I disagree. They are effective for their purpose - which is to challenge the PCs without killing them outright.

Strictly speaking - I think that the purpose of the NPC is to be CR25 (or whatever). If your CR25 NPC is facing a 10th level party then yes, in fact the CR25 NPC's purpose is to kill the party. That's the DMs choice. What's nice to know is that the CR25 is worth it's rating.

 

[jasper]

Am I the only one that feels nervous doing 35 points of damage to the PC, because my gut told me it was roughly the right amount of damage that would be done by the NPC, which kills the PC by one point? Naturally, my gut has been wrong before, many times.

Or issuing a DC24 finger of death, without going through all the DC boost checks to make sure it's ok? (and the PC dies after rolling a 23)?

Oh boo hoo. Dead pc. Find a cleric and fix the boo boo. And how is this different from a full stated out lower leverl cr using ambush and taking out the pc. My npc will have pick the spell I think will be correct for this encounter. Which means basically all my npc cast spells like sorcerers and I just make sure the spellbook has those spells in it.

 

[Henry]

Am I the only one that feels nervous doing 35 points of damage to the PC, because my gut told me it was roughly the right amount of damage that would be done by the NPC, which kills the PC by one point? Naturally, my gut has been wrong before, many times.

Or issuing a DC24 finger of death, without going through all the DC boost checks to make sure it's ok? (and the PC dies after rolling a 23)?

I don't, any more than I feel guilty in 2nd edition when a PC died if he miscalculated his saving throw roll, and didn't realize it until two weeks after he had a new character. I'd also feel as bad as if I misread a column of the 2E saving throw chart and gave an NPC an incorrect stat, and then they died because of it.

What I don't intend to do is to do as much work as 6 players in addition to my duties as GM for handling story issues, flow of the game, and appropriate rewards for each player at the end of the session. If I wanted to handle as many stats as my players, I'd play the D&D Miniatures game. My opinion is that, being a game, I'm not worried about miscalculations of numbers like I am miscalculations of story elements. I have FAR more worries interesting my players in the story at hand, or showing them a climactic battle, than I am getting every value right.

In addition, as posters have point out numerous times, CR values over about 7 or 8 in the Monster Manual can sometimes be SO off-base that I'd have to rig the stat block just to make them right for my group It's why I take the CR of a creature with a grain of salt, and look more at what it can do. Just as the CR is a guideline, the stat block is a "best-case" guideline too. If you know how high your players' stats go, you have a good approximation of how high your enemies stats need to go, too.