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4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

FireLance

Legend
I don't want the consequences. Because they intrude on the non-thinking process.
I think what you need is a relatively simple class like my armsman.

If you don't want to think about encounter and daily abilities, it's fairly simple to come up with a feat that adds to your effectiveness as long as you have unused encounter and daily attack powers, for example:
Offensive Reserves
You gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with at-will attack powers for each unused encounter attack power that you have, and a +2 bonus to damage rolls with at-will attack powers for each unused daily attack power that you have.​

With this class and this feat, you can be fairly effective with just at-will attacks. A 1st-level armsman with 18 Strength and 18 Dexterity, this feat and a greatsword can use weapon attack every round at +8 to hit and deal 1d10+14 damage.
 

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Tremorsense

First Post
I take "tactics" to mean "having to think about what you are doing in the middle". Or at all, for that matter. Attacks of Opportunity/Opportunity Attacks and limited uses mean you have to control yourself. I hate that. I'd much rather just be able to make snap decisions and be all impulsive.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, but you want to be able to decide to do any random thing in the middle of combat? If you don't have to put thought into your actions, but somehow things are expected to work out, then why bother having the mechanics of a fight? Would you, as the player, narrating the fight to the DM be the kind of thing you are looking for?
 

Hello Jeff,

4E for our group has been a steady decline in fun. Our group enjoyed 3.5 but was initially split on 4E. We pushed ahead, slowly losing interest with a player quitting the 4E game as well as rumblings amongst players (including myself) that the game experience was not as much fun as the previous edition. The game schedule has slowed as a result (bi-weekly to averaging about monthly).We have an excellent DM (I would say the best in our group) running the game, and we have gone through the standard modules with some extra goodness thrown in.

Like you, a lot of the little (and sometimes big) things that bothered me initially faded as they became an assumed part of the game. However, what still remains is that the game very much feels like a game, rather than how our older edition one's played.

Is it the measurement in squares? This is most probably one of the most annoying but trivial factors for me. When should ease of use and "supposed-elegance" give way to a more realistic but cumbersome framework?

Is it the way how powers operate? As a game model, absolutely fantastic. The using of powers is an excellent idea for the economically minded problem of restricted resources. Initially this impressed me but as my 4E experience has deepened, the almost automatic use of powers and power "suites" (I use this, you use that, I respond with this,... yes we have just optimized our damage potential... rinse repeat) has become a little stale. In our last game, the most fun thing for me was having my extemely obese Tiefling Warlord run at a door to charge it down - the failure to do so was hilarious with a series of interesting results from the failure. The optimized use of powers though was on the other hand... fairly typical with expected successful results.

I suppose the end result for me personally is an experience more like a highly detailed board game rather than the games of yore. I look forward to reading your further experiences in this thread. Hopefully you guys can come up with some ideas that I can use to transfer a bit of the fun into our 4E game. We'll keep playing both editions but gradually, I think our group will lose interest in 4E.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Silvercat Moonpaw

Adventurer
Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, but you want to be able to decide to do any random thing in the middle of combat? If you don't have to put thought into your actions, but somehow things are expected to work out, then why bother having the mechanics of a fight? Would you, as the player, narrating the fight to the DM be the kind of thing you are looking for?
Quite possibly yes.

The truth is I'm a person who really doesn't like fighting. I don't want to kill people/beings, I don't even want to hurt them. Or, at least, I don't want to think about it. The only way I can imagine fighting is if it's a visceral slugfest, a non-thinking activity. The mechanics of D&D tactical fighting force me out of that. So I either want a non-tactical option or more out-of-combat mechanics. (It's probably why I ask why people need combat rules but not non-combat rules: I feel like avoiding the combat rules but still want to play a game I look for non-combat mechanics to interact with.)
 

Charger28Alpha

First Post
Quite possibly yes.

The truth is I'm a person who really doesn't like fighting. I don't want to kill people/beings, I don't even want to hurt them. Or, at least, I don't want to think about it. The only way I can imagine fighting is if it's a visceral slugfest, a non-thinking activity. The mechanics of D&D tactical fighting force me out of that. So I either want a non-tactical option or more out-of-combat mechanics. (It's probably why I ask why people need combat rules but not non-combat rules: I feel like avoiding the combat rules but still want to play a game I look for non-combat mechanics to interact with.)

It seems to me that what you are looking for is a RPG with an extensive skills list. I find that the more non-combat skills a RPG has the more it needs to have non-combat mechanics.

What RPGs other than D&D (any edition) have you played? Did any of them have what you are looking for?
 

Ariosto

First Post
If one likes to use real-world tactics, then one may find the affair a bit disconcerting. "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre."
 

Holy Smokes

First Post
Great thread.

Regarding no consequences for bad/no tactics...

Meta gaming aside (even if your character would use superior tactics from a roleplaying perspective) there can be a tendancy to over-focus on optimizing your every act in combat, sometimes to a ridiculous degree. I often see this happen in 4E at LFR games, which are often combat focused, and encourage tactical efficiency because everyone wants to finish before midnight, or such.

However, I would argue that 4E does provide some support for a just-do-it style of combat:

1. While 4E combat tactics do punish you for mistakes, it does it slower then before, so you have time (and narrative support) for making adjustments in play. The hit point scheme and more/faster-combat rounds in the same amount of time both contribute to this.

2. Just-doing-it often works. The actual accumulative result of all the combat effects means that taking action, even crazy or instinctive decisions, can work out for the best, and are always better than overthink paralysis. Damn the torpedoes is a valid approach in 4E combat.

The net result is that some of the most fun, memorable combats happen when the PCs screw up. :p

Regarding hit points And All That...

I go with the Schrödinger's Hit Points school of thought. I know this is a tired, sore subject, so real quick:

1. Hit points tell you something about your character's state and how close that state is to change. Normal, Bloodied, or Dying, and how close or far you are to any of those conditions. That's ALL hit points (in any existing edition of D&D) do! Anything else, including anything like 'damage', physical or otherwise, is simply narrative. For 4E, in particular, this means any imaginable effect (not already specified in the rules, i.e.: slowed, dazed, etc.) that degrades your character's ability to hold up his or her end of a fight is rolled up into a single generic effect called damage.

2. In 4E, hit points are an immediate/encounter resource; healing surges are a daily resource, and carefully managed ongoing surge losses make for great long term effects, in addition to diseases and such. The example of skill challenges or other story-driven events that incur surge losses are a great example. Plus, DM's don't have allow extended rests according to any clock; rope trick is a 12th level ritual in 4E for a good reason.

There are weakness to this way of thinking, and this will always be a pivot point for many D&D players, but this works for some of us! :)

Regarding samey powers and use out of combat...

Anecdotally:

1. In 4E, rogues get a power (martial exploit) that allows them to switch places with an ally on their turn once per encounter called King's Castle. My LFR swordmage has an encounter power called Dimensional Warp that does almost the exact same thing. Aside from small differences like doing damage and range, the main differences are in use. Both are situational encounter powers, and its those situations that make them so different. The rogues are setting up flanks or other forms of combat advantage with it, while I'm rescuing 'squishies' or tagging in or out with another defender. I'm playing a blink-elf for the flava! ;)

2. Speaking of Dimensional Warp, there was this time (outside of combat, but not at band camp!) when a less-than-athletic squishy ally fell into a deep pit, and had trouble getting out (no Life Alert I guess). Whose your buddy with the arcane teleportation spell and a decent athletics check? That's right, your blink-elf buddy. Let's see a rogue try that. B-)
 
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Quite possibly yes.

The truth is I'm a person who really doesn't like fighting. I don't want to kill people/beings, I don't even want to hurt them. Or, at least, I don't want to think about it. The only way I can imagine fighting is if it's a visceral slugfest, a non-thinking activity. The mechanics of D&D tactical fighting force me out of that. So I either want a non-tactical option or more out-of-combat mechanics. (It's probably why I ask why people need combat rules but not non-combat rules: I feel like avoiding the combat rules but still want to play a game I look for non-combat mechanics to interact with.)

You do realize that you're a distinct minority in terms of D&D players, and that the game would most likely be doing itself a disservice by catering towards you for combat purposes. As for noncombat, freeform vs. systems is open for debate, and 4E has obviously gone in the direction of freeform.
 

Spatula

Explorer
Quite possibly yes.

The truth is I'm a person who really doesn't like fighting. I don't want to kill people/beings, I don't even want to hurt them. Or, at least, I don't want to think about it. The only way I can imagine fighting is if it's a visceral slugfest, a non-thinking activity. The mechanics of D&D tactical fighting force me out of that. So I either want a non-tactical option or more out-of-combat mechanics. (It's probably why I ask why people need combat rules but not non-combat rules: I feel like avoiding the combat rules but still want to play a game I look for non-combat mechanics to interact with.)
My first thought in reading this is that D&D is not and has never been the game for you. Not that you couldn't play combat-less D&D (any edition), but doing so requires ignoring most of the rules and rendering a good chunk of the classes pointless.

My second thought is that it would be pretty easy to boil down the attack maneuvers in 4e to simple damage expressions for a more abstract combat experience. At-wills do 1[w] or 1d8 + stat, level 1 encounters do 2[w] or 2d8 + stat, level 1 dailies do 3[w] or 3d8 + stat, etc. Alternatively the DM can keep the combat space in his or her mind's eye, adjusting for dramatic necessity, and not sweat the precise distances. But then the game would still involve violence.
 

Charger28Alpha

First Post
To the OP (The man who used a Dragon to mug his players)

Glad you enjoyed playing more than you expected.

I agree with your opinion of the diagonal movement, and it still occasionally tweaks me when playing. That is why I prefer hex grids.

The only thing that really bugs me about the rules is the lack of rules for close combat (ie two opponents occupying the same square). In the first 4th session I played, my PC ended up in a position where I wanted him to jump onto the back of an orc that was giving the party a run for their money. The plan I had in my head was to jump him than put my PC's arms under the orc's arms and have him lock his hands behind the orc's head. This would have forced the orc's head down and its arms out to its sides. With no clear cut rules on wrestling, I chose to have my PC pursue another orc up the stairs. With one of the parties fighters on the stairs right behind my PC jumping the orc was the best tactical decision.

I am having fun playing 4th Ed. It is, however, not a system I want to run. As a GM I prefer skill based over class based RPGs
 

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