Avalanche Strike is somewhat of a trap until/unless you get Curtain of Steel, especially when you're worried about your defenses. When you use it you're asking the DM to unload and take you down. When you can answer back with a 3[W] then the DM has to think twice about going after you, especially with the guy you just hit with it.
D&D 4E [4E] Barbarian build advice?
Aulirophile
First Post
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Hide Armor Expertise is a garbage feat now, sad to say. You'll be better off going Str/Dex even as a Rageblood. Read the handbook, check some of the example builds, and post questions in the thread if you have any. Enjoy.
Hide Armor Expertise is a garbage feat now, sad to say. You'll be better off going Str/Dex even as a Rageblood. Read the handbook, check some of the example builds, and post questions in the thread if you have any. Enjoy.
jbear
First Post
Here is a look at a DEX based Whirling Slayer Barbarian which might interest you. Personally I'd play a Human vs a Goliath for the extra feat, and extra at will (Pressing Strike is awesome to have in the arsenal), skill training and +1 to NADS but you may not be able to change that at this stage.
level 12
Goliath, Barbarian
Paragon Path: Bear Warrior: Apart from sprouting fur and growing the head of a bear when you rage (wicked!) ... +1 AC and Second Wind as a free action! AP = spend a HSurge free. Plus a Knock down encounter power that gives you a free attack if enemy tries to stand up. Later powers are solid as well.
Feral Might: Whirling Slayer
Background: Early Life - Social Outcast (+2 to Intimidate)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 16, Dex 18, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 13.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12.
AC: 26 Fort: 23 Reflex: 23 Will: 18
HP: 97 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 24
TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +14, Nature +13, Athletics +17, Thievery +14
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Waraxe): 1d12 Axe in each hand
Level 2: Axe Expertise: +1/2/3 Atk; effectively makes your Axes gain Brutal 1
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting: +1 DMG to each axe; opens up other key feats
Level 6: Two-Weapon Defense: +1 AC and REF ... why not? Improved Defenses is an alternative option to gain +1 FORT/REF/WILL instead. Eventually take both.
Level 8: Headsman's Chop: +5 DMG to Prone targets; see powers
Level 10: Sneak of Shadows: Hehe, now you can Sneak Attack too! +2d6 1/encounter, 3d6 at lvl 11. If you pick up Slaying Action Feat at some stage you can do this again on an action point. You have several ways you can achieve CAdv by yourself without needing to flank. But with a Rogue in the party, I imagine you flank a lot anyway. Plus training in Thievery which is fun and your DEX is decent
Level 11: Two-Weapon Opening: Crits give you a free attack with off hand weapon. This is when having 2 weapons really begins to pay off and so do all those multi target attacks; more attacks means more crit possibilties.
Level 12: Deadly Axe: And now your one handed axes are also High Crit weapons!
POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Whirling Rend: A very hard hitting version of Dual Strike where basically if the first attack hits, the second attack at the second target is an auto hit
Barbarian at-will 1: Howling Strike: Bread and Butter Charge/Single Target power
Barbarian encounter 1: Whirling Frenzy: 2d12 + STR in Burst 1 and it targets REFLEX. Sure you don't want to miss because it hurts a little ... but when you crit with this at Paragon, this turns into 4d12 as each seperate weapon is hitting, and each one is a high crit weapon, plus each weapons magical crit damage bonus ... it's a little bit insane actually ... plus Two Weapon Opening incase anything is left standing.
Barbarian daily 1: Thunder Hooves Rage: 3d12+STR dmg and now you can walk right through enemies. Tactically useful, but if your feeling risky or you have a fighter marking down an enemy you can do it to add 1d12 dmg to your attacks.
Barbarian utility 2: Combat Sprint: Extra 4 movement and +4 vs OAs, makes Thunder Hooves worth risking at least once no matter what the situation.
Barbarian encounter 3: Brutal Slam: Push 2 to make the most of damaging terrain and Prone. The target is now far enough away to Charge and +5 DMG with Headsman's Chop feat
Barbarian daily 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane: There are some pretty cool Dailies at level 5 but Burst 1 means lots of attacks, which means more chances to crit. Plus it deals 5 ongoing damage as an effect. It doesnt matter how tough those minions are, they are all dead without an attack roll. Plus every time you hit til the rage ends you deal 5 dmg to every enemy adjacent including the enemy you hit. Nice!
Barbarian utility 6: Combat Surge: reroll a missed attack ... easily swappable but that is one daily power you get a second chance at
Barbarian encounter 7: Slash and Slash Again: 2d12 +STR dmg to main target and 1d12+DEX auto dmg including the target to any enemy that starts its turn next to you. This is when your allies start using their forced movement powers to move everything they can over to where you are standing! Followed of course by Whirling Rend!
Barbarian daily 9: Oak Hammer Rage: A big hitting Daily that knocks prone and makes all your attacks Knock prone, including OAs. This should help get your Headsmans chop feat earning its keep. Hopefully your allies will invest in powers that knock prone as well but if not ... well like I said ... this should help.
Barbarian utility 10: Deny Death: One get out of Jail free card to use your Second Wind or quaff a potion before you start to die
ITEMS
Waraxe (2), Hide Armor
level 12
Goliath, Barbarian
Paragon Path: Bear Warrior: Apart from sprouting fur and growing the head of a bear when you rage (wicked!) ... +1 AC and Second Wind as a free action! AP = spend a HSurge free. Plus a Knock down encounter power that gives you a free attack if enemy tries to stand up. Later powers are solid as well.
Feral Might: Whirling Slayer
Background: Early Life - Social Outcast (+2 to Intimidate)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 16, Dex 18, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 13.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12.
AC: 26 Fort: 23 Reflex: 23 Will: 18
HP: 97 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 24
TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +14, Nature +13, Athletics +17, Thievery +14
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Waraxe): 1d12 Axe in each hand
Level 2: Axe Expertise: +1/2/3 Atk; effectively makes your Axes gain Brutal 1
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting: +1 DMG to each axe; opens up other key feats
Level 6: Two-Weapon Defense: +1 AC and REF ... why not? Improved Defenses is an alternative option to gain +1 FORT/REF/WILL instead. Eventually take both.
Level 8: Headsman's Chop: +5 DMG to Prone targets; see powers
Level 10: Sneak of Shadows: Hehe, now you can Sneak Attack too! +2d6 1/encounter, 3d6 at lvl 11. If you pick up Slaying Action Feat at some stage you can do this again on an action point. You have several ways you can achieve CAdv by yourself without needing to flank. But with a Rogue in the party, I imagine you flank a lot anyway. Plus training in Thievery which is fun and your DEX is decent
Level 11: Two-Weapon Opening: Crits give you a free attack with off hand weapon. This is when having 2 weapons really begins to pay off and so do all those multi target attacks; more attacks means more crit possibilties.
Level 12: Deadly Axe: And now your one handed axes are also High Crit weapons!
POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Whirling Rend: A very hard hitting version of Dual Strike where basically if the first attack hits, the second attack at the second target is an auto hit
Barbarian at-will 1: Howling Strike: Bread and Butter Charge/Single Target power
Barbarian encounter 1: Whirling Frenzy: 2d12 + STR in Burst 1 and it targets REFLEX. Sure you don't want to miss because it hurts a little ... but when you crit with this at Paragon, this turns into 4d12 as each seperate weapon is hitting, and each one is a high crit weapon, plus each weapons magical crit damage bonus ... it's a little bit insane actually ... plus Two Weapon Opening incase anything is left standing.
Barbarian daily 1: Thunder Hooves Rage: 3d12+STR dmg and now you can walk right through enemies. Tactically useful, but if your feeling risky or you have a fighter marking down an enemy you can do it to add 1d12 dmg to your attacks.
Barbarian utility 2: Combat Sprint: Extra 4 movement and +4 vs OAs, makes Thunder Hooves worth risking at least once no matter what the situation.
Barbarian encounter 3: Brutal Slam: Push 2 to make the most of damaging terrain and Prone. The target is now far enough away to Charge and +5 DMG with Headsman's Chop feat
Barbarian daily 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane: There are some pretty cool Dailies at level 5 but Burst 1 means lots of attacks, which means more chances to crit. Plus it deals 5 ongoing damage as an effect. It doesnt matter how tough those minions are, they are all dead without an attack roll. Plus every time you hit til the rage ends you deal 5 dmg to every enemy adjacent including the enemy you hit. Nice!
Barbarian utility 6: Combat Surge: reroll a missed attack ... easily swappable but that is one daily power you get a second chance at
Barbarian encounter 7: Slash and Slash Again: 2d12 +STR dmg to main target and 1d12+DEX auto dmg including the target to any enemy that starts its turn next to you. This is when your allies start using their forced movement powers to move everything they can over to where you are standing! Followed of course by Whirling Rend!
Barbarian daily 9: Oak Hammer Rage: A big hitting Daily that knocks prone and makes all your attacks Knock prone, including OAs. This should help get your Headsmans chop feat earning its keep. Hopefully your allies will invest in powers that knock prone as well but if not ... well like I said ... this should help.
Barbarian utility 10: Deny Death: One get out of Jail free card to use your Second Wind or quaff a potion before you start to die
ITEMS
Waraxe (2), Hide Armor
Peraion Graufalke
First Post
I don't see how you can SA with a waraxe, unless you happen to be a dwarf with the Tunnel Stalker feat, or am I missing something? (SA requires a light blade, hand crossbow, short bow, or sling.)
jbear
First Post
True. I hadn't actually realised how marginal that feat was. In my head I guess I just side stepped that restriction because it was a multiclass feat and I took 'you can use the Rogues Sneak Attack power' at face value. Actually very few builds are ever going to be interested in taking that feat: sorceror, xbow ranger, tempest fighter and maybe the monk spring to mind.
Okay, well, scrub that. A slot just opened up for Improved Defenses or Weapon Focus, or you could go Ranger I guess which is still 2d6 at level 11 and since you don't pick it up til 10th level ... it's not auto damage i.e you have to hit to trigger it, not hit and then release it but it lasts 2 rounds meaning potentially you can trigger it twice for +4d6 dmg in total. The Ranger also has a similar feat that allows you to reapply that damage on an action point.
Okay, well, scrub that. A slot just opened up for Improved Defenses or Weapon Focus, or you could go Ranger I guess which is still 2d6 at level 11 and since you don't pick it up til 10th level ... it's not auto damage i.e you have to hit to trigger it, not hit and then release it but it lasts 2 rounds meaning potentially you can trigger it twice for +4d6 dmg in total. The Ranger also has a similar feat that allows you to reapply that damage on an action point.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Actually in his case it will be as good as armor proficiency chainmail. He can still take armor specialization hide and second hide feat which will make it somewhat worthwhile.
of course, at epic it is just a +1 bonus but together with second hide and all those barbarian bonuses to AC, you will stay at chainmail effectiveness for the most part of you career. (Especially considering that armor specialization for chain and scale needs 15 dexterity.)
I would however try to spread my stats around a bit and make it
16/14/14/8/10/13, getting superior will at epic. And disciple of freedom instead of hide expertise.
No beeing immobilized during your turn is a pirority for a barbarian. Especially when you consider your not too impressive will defense.
A 16/14/14/13/10/8 Spread usually makes the most out of your stat points. And when having perfect matched stats for main and secondary attribute, you can hardly do wrong.
Aulirophile
First Post
At level 11 with 1 feat using Dex as a secondary a Barbarian will have 28 AC. That is level+17, one shy of a standard Defender. Chain is 26 (also requires a feat and gives you a speed penalty). The riders on Barbarian powers are not powerful enough to justify that when melee strikers are so fragile, especially since the incidental benefits from Dex (initiative, good reflex, feat qualification) are even more valuable. HAE is identical to Chain (26) at level 11... with two feats, not one. This gets progressively worse, till epic where it ends with 43 AC (two feats, HAE+Second Skin) vs 48 AC (one feat, Second Skin). Note it is possible to skip Second Skin and have standard melee striker AC of level+16 (46). If you go up to Scale and get Scale Spec (three feats now) you'll get a whopping 45 AC at level 30, 3 behind Dex secondary. Assuming no ED stat boost, with an ED stat boost you'll be at 49 AC with one feat, vs 45 with three (or still at 43 because you picked HAE.. not benefiting from your stats is fun).
You have to go up to plate+plate spec+heavy shield to compete with Hide Armor using Dex as your secondary. If you are going to dump dex, then you should absolutely go up to plate ASAP, but the benefits (the same AC you would have had anyway, a couple surges, worse NADs, worse Init, more limited weapon selection due to trouble meeting feat qualifications, having to dump six feats into instead of one, oh, and you can't use a 2her because in order to hit the same AC you need to use a shield) don't outweigh the benefits (same AC as plate+plate spec+shield, decent AC with no feats at all, 3-4 less surges, better initiative, better NADs, easy feat qualification).
None of that is in any way debateable, those are the numbers. HAE is tolerable in Heroic, kind of (except for the fact that you don't need to take a feat if you just allocate your stats properly). After that is just starts to suck harder and harder.
So, again, HAE is a garbage feat and all Barbarian builds, regardless of what class feature they go for, will ideally use Dex as a secondary. Unless they want to burn 4 feats minimum to hit the expected baseline AC for a melee striker, and six plus having to use a shield to be competitive with Dex+Hide. And it isn't like you're tanking Con, it'll still be 3-4 your whole career.
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UngeheuerLich
Legend
@Aulirophile:
Yes, as stated in my Post before: "Stays at chainmail effectiveness"... So we do not disagree here... your analysis just shows, that chainmail is not enough, not that we disagree here. A garbage feat? Not at all. Just a feat which will only helps to compensate a bad build as god as chainmail proficiency, as stated in my post. (which costs 2 feats if you want to get rid of speed penalty.)
If this feat was much better, It would be too powerful. An imbalanced stat distribution should not be remedied that easily by a single feat.
You could argue that hide expertise should be getting an upgrade to +2/+2/+3 which would take into consideration, that at epic, int or dex is at least 12. But even this could be considered borderline broken.
Yes, as stated in my Post before: "Stays at chainmail effectiveness"... So we do not disagree here... your analysis just shows, that chainmail is not enough, not that we disagree here. A garbage feat? Not at all. Just a feat which will only helps to compensate a bad build as god as chainmail proficiency, as stated in my post. (which costs 2 feats if you want to get rid of speed penalty.)
If this feat was much better, It would be too powerful. An imbalanced stat distribution should not be remedied that easily by a single feat.
You could argue that hide expertise should be getting an upgrade to +2/+2/+3 which would take into consideration, that at epic, int or dex is at least 12. But even this could be considered borderline broken.
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