4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[Thasmodious]

WAY TO GO GUYS! WE'VE MADE MEARLS CRY! QUICK, WE NEED PICTURES OF ADORABLE KITTENS! HELP ME GOOGLE!

It's gonna be all right, Mike! I promise! In a world with kittens like that, how can it not be?!

I don't find those four kittens are doing it for me at all. Four kittens is a terrible decision. I really feel like the existence of these four kittens has ruined my ability to even like kittens, at all, for ever and ever. I guess I have no choice but to stick with three kittens -

 

[Jasperak]

(snip)
Now, the point of this is that most of my professors believe that most people form their opinions based on pathos, but they use logos to justify them and influence others. Sure, you can make as many logical arguments you want about something, but once you've made a decision, committed to that decision, and then start arguing about it, it's because there is something that resonated with you emotionally. It is admirable to want to examine things logically, and in fact, if you can't justify something from a logical point of view, you should probably take another look at why you hold to a certain belief, but a person should also not be ashamed to admit about something that it just doesn't work for them and they don't like it.
(/snip)

Exactly.

 

[Jasperak]

I don't find those four kittens are doing it for me at all. Four kittens is a terrible decision. I really feel like the existence of these four kittens has ruined my ability to even like kittens, at all, for ever and ever. I guess I have no choice but to stick with three kittens -

Are you seriously choosing 3 over 4?

 

[Truth Seeker]

Litter...​

 

[billd91]

It'll never happen, and the forums will continue to have the "stuff" they've been displaying for months and months, if not years. Sure, it'll die down - but you'll always have a group (call them 'loyal' or call them 'nuts' or call them whatever you'd like to call such people) that will continue to post and complain about a game that they do. not. play.

Why? Human nature.

But there are plenty of other reasons to participates in criticisms of a game that people don't play. I came up with these 2 without trying very hard at all.

1) The game said poster does not play replaced the game they do play in a company's product catalog, making it harder to recruit new players for the old game. That's certainly going to fodder for discussion.

2) Complaints, if read and recorded by the company, may help them figure out how to improve the current game or make it more appealing to players of the older version. I find it unfortunate that someone's ideas might be seen as completely dismissible simply because they aren't currently playing the game.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

The game said poster does not play replaced the game they do play in a company's product catalog, making it harder to recruit new players for the old game. That's certainly going to fodder for discussion.

For a while, I agree. But at a point 'discussion' (which I'll define as rationale discourse) segues into something...less beneficial. For anyone involved, in any game, of any edition, on any forum.

2) Complaints, if read and recorded by the company, may help them figure out how to improve the current game or make it more appealing to players of the older version. I find it unfortunate that someone's ideas might be seen as completely dismissible simply because they aren't currently playing the game.

I stand corrected; that's a good reason and rationale.

WP

 

[firesnakearies]

House rules are the sincerest form of critique.

This.

 

[mearls]

By the way, you should have kept half-orcs in the PHB and dropped eladrin. What the hell were you thinking?

Man, everbody's a critic!

More seriously, the feedback thing is important. We're definitely listening to what people want in the game, stuff they've been excited about, stuff they dislike.

When people get shrill and angry, it's very easy to tune 'em out. The thing is, someone can be really angry and say, "Man, it's freakin' stupid that the half-orc isn't in the PH" and that's actually a useful thing to hear (people are mad about the half-orc; are a lot of them mad? should we do something?). I can react to that, and we do talk about this stuff at WotC.

Stuff that Firelance talked about, that just makes it easy to lose the useful feedback signal amongst all the noise.

And like I've said before, it works both ways. If someone's talking through why 4e doesn't work for them, calling them stupid just shuts down useful discussion. If people out there have an issue with the game, and it's something that can teach us something, we want to hear.

 

[firesnakearies]

Man, everbody's a critic!

More seriously, the feedback thing is important. We're definitely listening to what people want in the game, stuff they've been excited about, stuff they dislike.

When people get shrill and angry, it's very easy to tune 'em out. The thing is, someone can be really angry and say, "Man, it's freakin' stupid that the half-orc isn't in the PH" and that's actually a useful thing to hear (people are mad about the half-orc; are a lot of them mad? should we do something?). I can react to that, and we do talk about this stuff at WotC.

Stuff that Firelance talked about, that just makes it easy to lose the useful feedback signal amongst all the noise.

And like I've said before, it works both ways. If someone's talking through why 4e doesn't work for them, calling them stupid just shuts down useful discussion. If people out there have an issue with the game, and it's something that can teach us something, we want to hear.

I have no complaints so far, you guys did a tremendous job. 4E is awesome! However, I've got a complaint prepped and ready for future use, should the need arise. It's a readied action I suppose, with the trigger being "WotC announces their next campaign setting after Eberron to be anything OTHER than Dark Sun."

That would be stupid. There IS no "useful discussion" regarding NOT doing Dark Sun next.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I think that these discussions happen because we all have something at stake here. Our hobby isn't so big to begin with. When the community gets split like this, it becomes harder for ALL of us.

I believe both sides believe, at least somewhere in the back of their minds, that they are fighting for the "soul" of D&D. The people who are sticking with 3.5e feel that if they reach a critical mass of people who reject 4e that they can topple it and force a 5e that is much closer to 3.5e. The 4e supporters(or at least me, since I can't speak for everyone) simply want more people to accept the new edition so we have more people to play with.

However, I am reaching a wall of emotion the likes of which I haven't seen for anything, ever. I have had one of my friends not only refuse to look at the new books but threaten to set fire to any books that anyone tries to make him read. I spent a number of years building a community of D&D players in our city who played Living Greyhawk together and we were split right down the middle due to 4e. Those of us who switched over to 4e are having fun playing Living Forgotten Realms. But each and every time we talk to the 3.5e supporters they bombard us with comments like "Oh, you are playing that STUPID game" and "Talk to me when you decide to play a REAL game" and so on.

And I see that echoed here. I try to avoid the edition war threads whenever possible because it just gives me a headache to see so much negativity all the time. I enjoy both games and I don't hold any ill will toward 3.5e and am still planning on getting together with some people to play it. I'm just ready to play something different for a while and am excited about something new. I just want to get together with my friends again and have fun. And I'm disappointed that we can't get together and have fun over something as small as some rules for a game.