D&D 4E 4E conversions of 5E

[AbdulAlhazred]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has spoken in favour of "filler fights" in 4e. I'll approach the issue from the opposite direction: Night's Dark Terror doesn't have any filler fights. It's a tight module. I think 4e suits it better than its original system did!

I can also report that its maps were fine. Yes, the goblin warrens involved some fights in labyrinthine conditions - but isn't that what goblins are all about?

The other classic module I have converted to 4e is G2. In this case, again, there was the need to assign frost giant stats to the many, many giants in this adventure. I departed more from the original in this conversion (eg turning visiting giants and ogres(?) into visiting eladrin of the Winter Court, as fitted with my campaign backstory). But the maps were fine - some huge distances, which 4e tends to love - and it was a lot of fun.

I have to agree with you, I don't find filler fights to be terribly useful in 4e. Not that you NEVER have them, but I don't tend to treat "there's a couple orcs guarding the door" as a fight. I just let the PCs expend some resources to make sure said orcs are insta-ganked (or not and they can deal with the general alarm). Its possible you might have an RP encounter at other times, the bad guy just surrenders, plays dead, whatever.

Its possible a goblin warren full of labyrinthine passages might work, if you handle it correctly. I did any number of very limited dungeon crawl type scenarios that worked fine, you just had to limit it to say 5 encounters or so, or invoke an SC, etc.

G2 is a bit weird, there's a bunch of it that is outdoors, and even the main giant lair parts do have a lot of space. G1 and G3 are both a lot more constricted, the areas are reasonably large in them, but the giants are HUGE, so it still tends to turn into a crowd of monsters standing around swinging. I've always kinda wanted to try running Chris' G-series conversions and see how it worked out. I'd note that he definitely reworked a lot of the maps and encounters. It looks more like a 'based on the 1e module' kind of thing rather than a straight up conversion.

I'm sure you could run the whole GDQ series pretty much as-is in 5e.

 

[pemerton]

Its possible a goblin warren full of labyrinthine passages might work, if you handle it correctly. I did any number of very limited dungeon crawl type scenarios that worked fine, you just had to limit it to say 5 encounters or so, or invoke an SC, etc.

It's been about 6 years, but my recollection of the goblin lairs in Night's Dark Terror is that each has a handful of encounters. The ones I remember are the PCs attacking the goblins who had erected a barricade across their 10' wide corridor - at low level, where 4e PCs don't have that many movement powers and a goblin hexer's AoE is very strong, this claustrophobic set up worked very well - and another one in a hall with pillars, making for a lot of cover and tricky targetting of the mage's AoEs.

G2 is a bit weird, there's a bunch of it that is outdoors, and even the main giant lair parts do have a lot of space.

Yep. The Rift itself is enormous, but the upper ledges are narrow enough that pushing people off isn't too hard (and it happened in our game). When one group of PCs had to move from one end of the Rift to the other to help the fighter PC who was fighting giants at the other end, the movement took about 4 rounds of double-flying (in a Thundercloud Tower and on a captured/tamed giant Frosthawk).

Most of the underground caverns were plenty big enough also, even allowing for the size of the giants. The big cavern where the Jarl hangs out is another big space - the PCs couldn't move across it in a round - and there were two giants with arbalests providing missile cover from elevated firing platforms.

I deliberately chose G2 rather than G1 or G3 because of its geography, which (i) was my fondest memory from running it in AD&D decades ago, and (ii) seemed well-suited to 4e.

 

[MoutonRustique]

I've been wondering if it would be a pertinent project to "convert 4e adventures to 4e" (there are no typoes in the last sentence).

For instance, I've been reading Orcs of Stonefang Pass and... well... in a way, it's really bad. There are plenty of things there to make it good - but it feels like everything that'll be remembered about that adventure will be adapted/modified/extrapolated by the DM. And while, some measure of that is inevitable, in this case it kind of feels like it's going out of its way to make it feel "un-4e"...

Case in point : the first combat encounter is against hypogriffs and "archer fish" (first off: really? Fish that spit water? REALLY?) and it's obviously there just to be there. It's really bad.

Proposed fix idea : have the hypogriffs be tamed/coerced mounts of orcs. A small band of orcs found a nest and forced the hypogriffs into service with threats and beatings. The orcs are hunting the dwarves that have escaped the tunnel.

Also, ditch the fish.

All this being said, I'll be the first to admit, I'm not really good at this kind of work - I tend to improvise a great deal and forget half the plans I make when I do make them... But this feels like it could be fun.

What could be a good starting spot? Dungeon? Chronologically? Thematically? (like the Chaos Scar modules) Published modules?

In essence the idea would be to add purpose or "dynamism" to encounters, offer SC structures when applicable, perhaps remove parts that aren't required/salvageable and otherwise make the modules more worthwhile and geared towards what 4e best offers. (If these were movies, this'd be a "re-cut".)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I've been wondering if it would be a pertinent project to "convert 4e adventures to 4e" (there are no typoes in the last sentence).

Believe it or not, I doubt you're alone in that thought. Lots of people find most of the "official" 4e modules badly designed. Some have very neat fluff, like the Scales of War adventure path...but a lot of them have really crappy mechanical elements for a 4e adventure (SoW included).

For instance, I've been reading Orcs of Stonefang Pass and... well... in a way, it's really bad. There are plenty of things there to make it good - but it feels like everything that'll be remembered about that adventure will be adapted/modified/extrapolated by the DM. And while, some measure of that is inevitable, in this case it kind of feels like it's going out of its way to make it feel "un-4e"...

I have, more than once, considered starting a topic about making a "4e Primer," analogous to the "Old School Primer" but (hopefully...) without the condescending tone or "showing the other side in the worst possible light" examples. That is, for a lot of designers and DMs, there really IS a feel and expectation mismatch between what the rules are prepared to do, and what the DM thinks the rules need of her. Collecting together all the wisdom about how to keep combats running smoothly, how to encourage roleplay and improvisation, how to design punchy and dynamic encounters instead of slogs or time-wasters....basically just creating a smooth and easy path for people to adopt the paradigm shift, whether behind or in front of the DM screen.

Case in point : the first combat encounter is against hypogriffs and "archer fish" (first off: really? Fish that spit water? REALLY?) and it's obviously there just to be there. It's really bad.

Proposed fix idea : have the hypogriffs be tamed/coerced mounts of orcs. A small band of orcs found a nest and forced the hypogriffs into service with threats and beatings. The orcs are hunting the dwarves that have escaped the tunnel.

Also, ditch the fish.

All this being said, I'll be the first to admit, I'm not really good at this kind of work - I tend to improvise a great deal and forget half the plans I make when I do make them... But this feels like it could be fun.

Unfortunately, I'm really not the person to be doing this either--zero DM experience, and less 4e experience than I would like (none beyond 6th level, I'm afraid).

What could be a good starting spot? Dungeon? Chronologically? Thematically? (like the Chaos Scar modules) Published modules?

In essence the idea would be to add purpose or "dynamism" to encounters, offer SC structures when applicable, perhaps remove parts that aren't required/salvageable and otherwise make the modules more worthwhile and geared towards what 4e best offers. (If these were movies, this'd be a "re-cut".)

I have no idea where the best place to begin would be, but it couldn't hurt to do an adaptation of something like Scales of War, as mentioned above, because it is (IIRC) a complete 1-30 adventure path, so you wouldn't need to hunt around for several example adventures to string together.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I've been wondering if it would be a pertinent project to "convert 4e adventures to 4e" (there are no typoes in the last sentence). (snip)

Now that's a great idea, especially when combined with...

(snip) I have, more than once, considered starting a topic about making a "4e Primer," analogous to the "Old School Primer" but (hopefully...) without the condescending tone or "showing the other side in the worst possible light" examples. That is, for a lot of designers and DMs, there really IS a feel and expectation mismatch between what the rules are prepared to do, and what the DM thinks the rules need of her. Collecting together all the wisdom about how to keep combats running smoothly, how to encourage roleplay and improvisation, how to design punchy and dynamic encounters instead of slogs or time-wasters....basically just creating a smooth and easy path for people to adopt the paradigm shift, whether behind or in front of the DM screen. (snip)

... which is also another great idea.

Personally, though, I think the work involved in fixing Scales of War is so great - IMO, it goes beyond mechanical fixes: it's really not an adventure path in many parts (like the much-lamented H/P/E/Orcus series) - that you end up getting frustrated and losing interest especially when it's a group project on a messageboard.

So, along the lines of what @MoutonRustique is suggesting, why don't we pick a smaller adventure and try and make that work? I think Heathen from Dungeon 155 is a good candidate. It's well-regarded despite being an early release, it stands alone really well, it's from a free issue of Dungeon so anyone reading along can also read the original, it does need mechanical fixing because it's pre-MM3 so that means we can show the difference in stat blocks after the designers got their monster maths right, and it's just a single adventure.

In short, it's a manageable project.

Thoughts?

Edit: Another thought or two about Heathen and skill challenges. As there is wilderness travel involved, it's a good chance to show the skill challenge mechanic at work in that setting and then there is the possibility of redeeming the BBEG - I cannot remember if this is in the adventure or something [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] invented - via a skill challenge in the final combat which is something very different to an SC used for exploration. (I'll re-read the adventure shortly and see if I need to rewrite that last bit.)

 

[S'mon]

Edit: Another thought or two about Heathen and skill challenges. As there is wilderness travel involved, it's a good chance to show the skill challenge mechanic at work in that setting and then there is the possibility of redeeming the BBEG - I cannot remember if this is in the adventure or something [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] invented - via a skill challenge in the final combat which is something very different to an SC used for exploration. (I'll re-read the adventure shortly and see if I need to rewrite that last bit.)

Potential redemption of Jaryn is in the adventure, though it has him kill himself if redeemed which seems a bit of a waste.

I can't provide much insight into redeeming skill challenges, by this time I had learned to largely ignore them and play it by ear. Things I did with Heathen
(a) introduce a personal element, Jaryn tried to recruit a PC who he said was the Bane Child (he wasn't lying); and he was the former mentor of a second PC who dashed the proferred healing chalice from his hand in one of the campaign's best scenes.
(b) Cutting some combats, there are too many on the trek to the mountain. Within the temple the PCs were warned off the extraneous giant zombies fight, which improved the pacing.
(c) Statting - I halved hit points, added half level to damage, made sure that Elites (Jaryn) had average DPR of 1.5 times standard and Solo (Naarash) 3 times standard (Action Points and greater endurance take the total threat level to 2 & 5 times standard).

I really didn't have to do a lot to fix this adventure compared to almost any other 4e adventure I've run, though.

 

[S'mon]

I've been wondering if it would be a pertinent project to "convert 4e adventures to 4e" (there are no typoes in the last sentence).

For instance, I've been reading Orcs of Stonefang Pass and... well... in a way, it's really bad. There are plenty of things there to make it good - but it feels like everything that'll be remembered about that adventure will be adapted/modified/extrapolated by the DM. And while, some measure of that is inevitable, in this case it kind of feels like it's going out of its way to make it feel "un-4e"...

Case in point : the first combat encounter is against hypogriffs and "archer fish" (first off: really? Fish that spit water? REALLY?) and it's obviously there just to be there. It's really bad.

Yes, leaving aside some of the Dungeon Delves, Orcs of Stonefang Pass must be the worst 4e adventure I've actually run, even though it tied in very nicely to my campaign backstory around the fallen dwarf kingdom of Ammarindar.. Salvaging it would involve cutting out half or more of the stuff in the tunnel, and mapping out (a decent part of) the orc-filled citadel at the end - I had a dragon negotiation at the climactic encounter hich went well. In the last battle Stonefang needs to be less nerfed so he can still threaten a competent
group.

 

[pemerton]

Potential redemption of Jaryn is in the adventure, though it has him kill himself if redeemed which seems a bit of a waste.

The PCs in my game intervened with some sort of interrupt effect to stop the suicide - so that they were able to return Jaryn to his home town in glory.

I think for the actual skill challenge I followed the model in Cairn of the Winter King - N psychic damage for ea

Cutting some combats, there are too many on the trek to the mountain. Within the temple the PCs were warned off the extraneous giant zombies fight, which improved the pacing.

When I ran Heathen I cut most of the cruft. I'm hostile to filler as a general principle of RPGing, but in 4e I find that it's particularly pointless.

 

[MoutonRustique]

[MENTION=87576]Scrivener of Doom[/MENTION] A most excellent plan!

I'm printing it out and reading it tonight - I should have something concrete to contribute by Thursday (fixing the canoe rack tomorrow - might take an hour, might take the whole day : I'm not what you'd call "handy", as a general rule...)

 

[D'karr]

I have not converted any adventures from 5e to 4e because truthfully I have not found any of them very compelling or interesting enough to convert.
However, in the past I've converted the original Slavers Modules (A1-A4) to 4e. A4 was particularly challenging to translate over but in the end it worked well. I've converted the original Ravenloft (I6). It is a classic that I've converted multiple times (3e, 3.5e, and 4e) and we've played it several times. I've also converted bits and pieces of the original Dragonlance Modules (pieces of DL1, DL2 and DL4 specifically). [MENTION=38140]Frylock[/MENTION] also converted the Giants Series (G1-G3) and some of the Drow Series, which were great fun to play in.

We have also played in several converted to 4e Pathfinder modules. Currently I'm playing in a Kingmaker (4e) game.