D&D 4E 4e HP speculation based on new D&D podcast

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The most direct official pronouncement was the one in the podcast where it was said "what hit dice? There are no hit dice." But I'm also fairly sure I saw a reference in one of the WoTC staff posts within the last couple weeks. It was in the discussion about monster roles and levels, an offhand mention that PC HP were no longer random either. As I don't have search it's taking time to wade through all those old threads.

Well, i definitely remember that "Hit Dice" is gone for monsters, but I can't remember a reference that explicitely states whether Hit Dice exist or not exist and are rolled or not rolled for 4th PCs.

By the way, from all the rolling methods, I think the Iron Heroes variant was the best. YOu rolled 1d4 and added a fixed bonus depending on class. This made it a lot more likely that characters that are supposed to have a lot hit points will have them, even with some bad rolls.

 

[Steely Dan]

Well, i definitely remember that "Hit Dice" is gone for monsters, but I can't remember a reference that explicitely states whether Hit Dice exist or not exist and are rolled or not rolled for 4th PCs.

I believe HD is gone, period, in 4th Ed, along with LA/ECL/CR/EL.

There is now only "Level"…thank god.

 

[Keenath]

In real life, one I suppose could argue that it's random what everyone gets...but not really. In real life there's nature and nurture and it's not really so much random considering people also have the ability to train their bodies and develop skills on their own. If you're born small and skinny, you can work out. If you're clumsy you can take gymnastics, if you're shy, take Speech classes.

Well, or it goes the other way through negative reinforcement -- people who are clumsy tend not to get into jobs that require agility; smart people often get into professions that require intelligence; and so on. There's training, but also that most people go with their natural talents.

Anyway, I object to a system that can create a character with a net modifier of only +1 -- he is not a hero; he's an average joe.

 

[jhouse]

Sounds like the Average HD (rounded up)

d4 = 2.5 = 3
d6 = 3.5 = 4
d8 = 4.5 = 5
d10 = 5.5 = 6
d12 = 6.5 = 7

Personally, I'm a big fan of this style of hit points. As a GM, and a math geek, I offer players a simple choice:
A: Do not roll the dice and take the average amount (rounded up)
B: In front of me, roll the die. Re-roll all 1's.

Re-rolling 1's makes the players feel like I'm being a nice guy, but it's also to make the math work out... By dropping the 1's, the average die roll is increased by 0.5. That means on average, a player's choice won't hurt them (or help them).

 

[kennew142]

My group and I have used static hp throughout 3e (1/2 max + 1), but I would hope that they will include both methods for the sake of those who like to roll hit points. It is no skin off my nose how any other group determines their hp.

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

Yes, because it's so much fun playing a fighter with less hit points than the wizard.

In twenty years of gaming I've never seen it. Not once have I ever encountered a problem with rolling for hp, and I see no reason for changing a system that's worked for me for years.

The ideal situation for 4e would be for it to present both systems. Have a fixed hit point total, as well as a system for rolling, even if it's optional.

 

[Jack99]

In twenty years of gaming I've never seen it. Not once have I ever encountered a problem with rolling for hp, and I see no reason for changing a system that's worked for me for years.

I played a 3rd level paladin with 4 hp's back in 2e.. that was interesting to say the least..

 

[Steely Dan]

I played a 3rd level paladin with 4 hp's back in 2e.. that was interesting to say the least..

Yeah, I had a similar character, but unfortunately he was taken out when a gnome threw a carrot at him.

 

[JohnSnow]

So, I was looking at the description of Toughness from Design & Development: Feats, and something jumped out at me. I had been assuming that Fourth Edition would work similarly to Star Wars Saga Edition, with a static number of hit points at 1st-level and then an increase at every level after that. That's how Toughness works in SWSE, but it's not how Toughness works in Fourth Edition. Here's the feat description:

Toughness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain additional hit points equal to your level + 3. You also gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level.

That means that, at 1st-level, Toughness grants 4 hp, not 3. Or in other words, at least as far as Toughness goes, 1st-level grants both a kicker (+3 hp), and the ordinary hit point that any level does (+1).

We can try to infer the mechanics by taking the example from Design & Development: Death and Dying of a 15th-level fighter with 120 hp, and applying some of the speculations that Steve Schubert implied were "on the right track" in the podcast - an initial boost and static hit points at each level after that. Here's my math:

Let's assume that a 1st-level Fighter gets a first level "kicker" of 30 hp. Let's further assume that he gains 5 hp per level after that. If we also give him a +1 CON bonus (12 or 13 CON), that means 6 hp per level. Extrapolating out, that gives:

1st - 36 hp
2nd - 42 hp
3rd - 48 hp
4th - 54 hp
5th - 60 hp
6th - 66 hp
7th - 72 hp
8th - 78 hp
9th - 84 hp
10th - 90 hp
11th - 96 hp
12th - 102 hp
13th - 108 hp
14th - 114 hp
15th - 120 hp
16th - 126 hp
17th - 132 hp
18th - 138 hp
19th - 144 hp
20th - 150 hp
21st - 156 hp
22nd - 162 hp
23rd - 168 hp
24th - 174 hp
25th - 180 hp
26th - 186 hp
27th - 192 hp
28th - 198 hp
29th - 204 hp
30th - 210 hp

That's at least consistent with both the mechanics of the Toughness feat and the numbers in Design & Development: Death and Dying. Also, if you assume that they reverse engineered from the Hit Dice, it almost makes sense.

In Third Edition, a fighter had d10 hit dice. Tripling that, á la Saga Edition (ported over from that stage of 4E design perhaps?), gives the "kicker" number of 30. Further, the base "per level" of 5 hp is a somewhat logical "half max on a d10," or "average on a d10, rounded down." Normalizing the progression of extra hit points to include Level 1 simplifies the math, so you're not accidentally figuring it as: "Let's see, Level 15 fighter = 30 + 5 x 15...no wait, 5 x 14..."

Which I know I've done when calculating hit points in Saga...

Under this system, your first "logical" instinct is also "correct." It's also consistent with how Saga handles attacks and defenses in that a starting 1st-level character gets both the "kicker" and his "first-level" bonus.

Thoughts? Speculations on what it might mean for other classes?

Personally, I think the d4 base is history, but I could be wrong.

 

[GAAAHHH]

In 4E, there are no hit points.

You die when Chuck Norris wants you to die.