D&D 4E 4E needs monsters between minion and "normal"

[zoroaster100]

So in 4E we have minions with 1 hp, "normal" monsters that take about four hits to kill, elites with double hp and solos with 5 times the hit points. While the game can be fun, I've noticed some concerns from players that it takes too many hits to kill the "normal" monsters, not to mention the elites and solos. I think it's fine to have elites and solos for occasional use, and normal monsters too. Minions can be neat too, especially in big groups, but it can feel too much like everyone knows how easy it is to kill them or else it takes too long. What about having something in between, with half the hp of a normal monster, but doing about the same damage and being worth about half the XP? What is the downside or what obstacles must be overcome to implement such monsters in 4E?

 

[FireLance]

Your only real problem would be the extra tracking required. One of the advantages to minions is that you don't have to bother with tracking hit points. A minion is either alive or dead.

One way around this problem could be for the first hit to bloody the monster and the second hit to kill it. A critical hit would kill such a monster immediately.

If the extra tracking of hit points doesn't bother you, halving a standard monster's hit points and XP award should be fine. I've done pretty much the same thing, but from the opposite direction: namely, adding hit points to a minion. I call such monsters "adjuncts".

 

[Syrsuro]

Your only real problem would be the extra tracking required. One of the advantages to minions is that you don't have to bother with tracking hit points. A minion is either alive or dead.

One way around this problem could be for the first hit to bloody the monster and the second hit to kill it. A critical hit would kill such a monster immediately.

I was using a system very similar to this for awhile (it was a bit more complex in that, in addition to a critical, any hit that did more than the minions level in hp would kill it outright, while any attack that did less than that would bloody it).

It had the benefit of still being easy and quick (no hp tracking, just pop a bloodied marker under the unit). But I abandoned it because players just like wiping out those minions.

I may (ok, will) use the idea occasionally. But it will fall into the exception category, rather than the general rule category.

Carl

 

[DracoSuave]

Wierd. I give our party encounters above their level, and they seem to mop the floor pretty easy. When they set their mind to it, they have a tendancy to down a monster pretty quickly. They tend to pile on one monster instead of splitting their attacks amid many, and they tend to use heavy damage powers effectively. If anything, I find 100hps of damage happens too quickly.

 

[Syrsuro]

Wierd. I give our party encounters above their level, and they seem to mop the floor pretty easy. When they set their mind to it, they have a tendancy to down a monster pretty quickly. They tend to pile on one monster instead of splitting their attacks amid many, and they tend to use heavy damage powers effectively. If anything, I find 100hps of damage happens too quickly.

I'm not sure what the relevance of this observation to minions is, but the DMG suggests that roughly half of the encounters should be higher level than the party (mostly level+1 or level+2 with around one per level at level+3). I find that level+1/+2 is actually about right and encounters of the parties level (and certainly lower) are typically too easy (which is the mechanic behind the recent threads on the WoTC forums about LFR adventures being too easy).

If your party is finding level+3 or higher encounters 'pretty easy' you may want to find ways for your encounters to better use the terrain and tactics to their advantage.

Carl

 

[Nebulous]

I introduced Improved Minions in my game (well, i will soon). Bloodied the first hit, dead the second hit. Missed attacks that deal damage CAN knock them to Bloodied, but can't kill them afterwards (as per the regular minion rule).

 

[Yumepenguin]

I think a good idea here would be to just use lower level monsters (not sure what the level of your party is). That way you can have weaker monsters that aren't just "i can attack you for flat damage", but they still die in 2 - 3 hits as opposed to 4 or 5 hits.

 

[VenezuelanWiz]

I've used multiple variants because the players will occasionally find it very unsatisfying to fight minions or normal monsters.

I used Lesser and Minor monsters [as suggested by Keterkeys if I recall correctly in one of the fan creation threads] when the PCs were 1st and 2nd lvl. You take the lvl 1 normal monsters and reduce them 1-2 levels. That makes their HP about 1-3 hits to kill off.

The last tactic I used was in a zombie adventure, where the minion zombies had 2 hits with a damage threshhold. If the first attack did 10hp of damage the zombie died immediately. The reason for this was to allow strikers to still shine, but give the monsters the mook feeling. I had them roll damage as the normal monsters but made them weakened so they oscilated around minion damage.

Another trick I used to make minions more interesting [albeit not quite addressing the minions / normal monster gap] is to use the minions as a swarm. Put a dozen of them into 4 squares and have them be a 'swarm'. Made it quite interesting and really shocked my players and worked pretty well.

 

[James McMurray]

This might be helpful to someone. The players have yet to go where there is something like this, but it's looking like I'll finally get to playtest it soon.

The idea is that instead of a ton of minions you end up with a swarm of regular monsters upgraded to an elite or solo unit based on how many there are. Slightly modified swarm rules and some abilities that (I hope) decently reflect the capabilities of a military unit or a mob of rabble round out the templates.

A word of caution: if you use this, try it with creatures that are not insubstantial and do not inflict weakness first. My first attempt at applying the template involved wraith lurkers whose insubstantiality and weakening touch would have meant they were taking 1/4 normal damage most of the time. After a battle with an upgraded phane we decided that insubstantial + weakness don't mix well. Tacking on swarm defenses to that would be even more tedious on the batlefield.

 

[Armadillo]

It does. They're Encounter Level -4.