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D&D 4E [4e] Paladin (feat) advice needed

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Truthfully, I don't know much of his background. I thought the thread fascinating because he was representing himself as an old school GM (which I easily qualify for having run games since '84 and with probably more hours of AD&D GMing than only an incredibly minute portion of the world's gaming population!) who had some measure of apathy or ambivalence to 4e until a very recent bout of intrigue. Did he have an edition warrior past? Was he an ardent member of the OSR? Neither? I was curious.

But perusing (very shallow-like) that thread, I see some analysis and invocation of indie games (PBtA games, Torchbearer, Cortex+, and I believe Fate?). So maybe he and I have a lot more in common if he likes those games too (he appears to have at least a passing understanding of them if not an outright interest). How will his position on 4e SCs spin out of that (if true)?

I get the feeling, from my own reading of those threads, that he came into the hobby relatively early too (no later than 2e and probably much earlier), stuck around until 3e came out and decided it wasn't his flavor, which led to him looking into other games and ideas, particularly PbtA games. Personally, from my experience with other DMs specifically running PbtA games, I definitely think it's having a positive influence. Part of it is just...Dungeon World makes a point of putting each player's choices, from the bottom up, in a central game place. The fact that someone is The Wizard--not merely a wizard--sets a little bit of the tone and direction of your game. Similarly, our game would not at all be the same if I had played a Sorcerer (my original, speculative choice, before a spot opened and left a need for a Defender, aka my favorite class, the Paladin!)--the religious overtones and devotional aspect of Seth would not be present, and it would have tweaked the narrative in a different direction. These kinds of lessons, which have always been important for tabletop play, are pushed front-and-center by Dungeon World's design, and I think that leads to Really Good Things for ANY future game a person runs. There's good reasons why, despite always wanting more bells and whistles to play with, I have SUPER fond memories of playing DW.

I just found it interesting and I'd like nothing more than for 4e to get a fair look (even a cult renaissance) after its "demise," which it sure as hell didn't get during its run. I've seen a lot of utterly unhinged peasants with pitchforks tribalism in my life. What 4e got was right up there with the best (worst) of it. I will never, ever, ever accept the appeasement line of the trolling/attack to defense ratio was anywhere near 50:50 in either frequency or virulence.

Yeah, 4e got a bad rap. We'll see how things evolve with time. It would be lovely for 4e to get a thorough renaissance treatment, one that kept true to the core spirit while polishing it up. Most people who have enough interest in that, I find, tend to want to go much, much further...I coined the phrase "mutations" as opposed to "clones" because, well, a lot of people making a so-called "4e clone" are producing a game that's very, very different. Sharply decoupled roles, for example. The "Trifold" series (from Neonchameleon, over at RPG.net) is probably the closest it gets...and even that still takes a LOT of liberties (for example, the Paladin, Cleric, and kinda-sorta Warlock get smushed together into a single class).

But I'd rather not dwell too much on exactly HOW bad a reception 4e got. We've had enough threads that did--and are doing!--that.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I coined the phrase "mutations" as opposed to "clones" because, well, a lot of people making a so-called "4e clone" are producing a game that's very, very different. Sharply decoupled roles, for example.
'Cloning' 4e the way PF 'cloned' 3.5 would be flat-out copyright infringement, 'mutations' must be a lot easier to produce legally.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
'Cloning' 4e the way PF 'cloned' 3.5 would be flat-out copyright infringement, 'mutations' must be a lot easier to produce legally.

Given the things most people complain about--bloat, feat taxes, tepid multiclass rules, and reduced variation in character depth (usually called "complexity")--I feel like it should be entirely possible to make a "clone." Something that just cleans up the "messy" parts, like the above-mentioned problems. Although it would be a fair amount of work, condensing every class down to (say) the 4-6 best powers at each level (sprucing up any that need it to meet the minimum number), scrapping all the useless/redundant feats and condensing together some of the more fiddly ones into something more interesting...I think it could be done.

But most people, seeing that, get this incredible itch to start changing everything. Universal powers! Pick-as-you-go classes! Decoupled roles! Statless! Gridless! And when you factor in all those things, it becomes...not really much like 4e anymore. It loses something along the way.
 

Given the things most people complain about--bloat, feat taxes, tepid multiclass rules, and reduced variation in character depth (usually called "complexity")--I feel like it should be entirely possible to make a "clone." Something that just cleans up the "messy" parts, like the above-mentioned problems. Although it would be a fair amount of work, condensing every class down to (say) the 4-6 best powers at each level (sprucing up any that need it to meet the minimum number), scrapping all the useless/redundant feats and condensing together some of the more fiddly ones into something more interesting...I think it could be done.

But most people, seeing that, get this incredible itch to start changing everything. Universal powers! Pick-as-you-go classes! Decoupled roles! Statless! Gridless! And when you factor in all those things, it becomes...not really much like 4e anymore. It loses something along the way.

Unfortunately I disagree with you on the first part. Its highly unlikely you could reproduce a power from 4e without stepping on copyright issues. At best you'd have to carefully rename them all, describe them differently, etc. Just the power block format alone may well be covered by things like design patents or trade dress issues. Just the level of uncertainty that exists around all that is more than enough to discourage anyone from making the attempt, given the utter lack of any significant monetary incentive to risk it. While there have been a couple of legally grey area OSR clones pulled off, its going to take a rare and special person to recapitulate all the immense crunch of 4e in a free form and then fling it out there and live with the legal backlash that is LIKELY to result.

When you think about it, 'mutations' simple make more sense. 4e is a fine game, but IMHO it is only a stepping-stone along the way to a more ideal product. Yes, that product will inevitably lose SOME of the character of 4e, but some of the character of 4e SHOULD be lost, and what's the point of releasing a game that does EXACTLY what some other game already has? The only point of that would be simple re-presentation of material that is difficult to obtain or who's form is obsolescent. This is what motivated the cloning of 1e AD&D, the desire to make a more accessible text that was available online.

Frankly, for my personal purposes, I've reconstructed the game almost entirely, yet I believe it retains most of its character and simply works better than the original, at least for me.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
Unfortunately I disagree with you on the first part. Its highly unlikely you could reproduce a power from 4e without stepping on copyright issues. At best you'd have to carefully rename them all, describe them differently, etc. Just the power block format alone may well be covered by things like design patents or trade dress issues. Just the level of uncertainty that exists around all that is more than enough to discourage anyone from making the attempt, given the utter lack of any significant monetary incentive to risk it. While there have been a couple of legally grey area OSR clones pulled off, its going to take a rare and special person to recapitulate all the immense crunch of 4e in a free form and then fling it out there and live with the legal backlash that is LIKELY to result.

I think the easiest thing to do is make a structure that basically takes the 'dark blue' powers of 4e and constructs them in a point buy form where it wouldn't be hard to figure out that you could swap other 4e powers of similar levels into the structure. The game wouldn't necessarily have Come And Get It, but there'd be a Fighter class, he'd gain his 3rd encounter power at level X, and the point buy system would tend to generate powers similar to level 7 powers from 4e in overall power level.

And certain classes would make it easier to generate specific kinds of powers - the Wizard might get blast/burst for a lower cost, the Invoker multi-targeting for a lower cost, Druid close blast, and Psion getting to spam as examples of 4e controller options.
 

I think the easiest thing to do is make a structure that basically takes the 'dark blue' powers of 4e and constructs them in a point buy form where it wouldn't be hard to figure out that you could swap other 4e powers of similar levels into the structure. The game wouldn't necessarily have Come And Get It, but there'd be a Fighter class, he'd gain his 3rd encounter power at level X, and the point buy system would tend to generate powers similar to level 7 powers from 4e in overall power level.

And certain classes would make it easier to generate specific kinds of powers - the Wizard might get blast/burst for a lower cost, the Invoker multi-targeting for a lower cost, Druid close blast, and Psion getting to spam as examples of 4e controller options.

Sure, but now you're on the road to a 'mutation' of 4e, and not really a clone. Once you develop a 'mix-n-match' power attribute point value system, then you'll quickly find that this drives things in directions that 4e doesn't go. Frankly I do not believe that there is ANY possible point system you can make that will produce something close to the powers of 4e, not THAT close. I spent YEARS husbanding our game clubs mass space combat system, which was all heavily point buy, and I can tell you, there's no such thing as a universal point buy system. Synergies are just too powerful. Something that is worthless in one context is utterly dominant in another. If you make its cost defined only by its most effective use, then in effect it and all the things that it goes together with to create that context become one single logical option, you can't afford to split them up. If you price it based on its general utility in a wide variety of situations, then you still have this one dominant use as a single logical option, because nobody can afford to pass it up at such a cheap price.

4e, as it is, is REASONABLY balanced, simply because any option that is TOO troublesome has never been published (well, some have, but they generally at least got errataed out of existence). Another thing that balances 4e is the prevention of infinite permutations, you can't combine just anything together, or if you can manage to combine several elements then ability score requirements or just sheer feat cost and other opportunity costs brings it into line. A point-buy power system would have none of those constraints. You could TRY to design in 'general constraints' (IE fighter powers have to use only this subset of all options, and they can't combine them in ways that diverge from the fighter/defender/martial 'theme', but who decides that).

I'm not saying a group of people couldn't play that game, but it would be a lot like 3.5 IMHO, it would be VERY breakable and only restrained table rules would keep it playable (or it would turn into an extreme munchkin-land version of 4e).

Now, maybe you can devise ways to tweak conditions, effects, and other material such as to better accommodate that sort of design. There ARE fairly viable point-based games out there, and powers still 'slot in' to a limited part of 4e, so it wouldn't seem perhaps impossible to do that, but you'd have had to revisit EVERY aspect of the game. Again, it seems like you can't get closer to 4e than making a 'mutant', even if you WANT to clone it!
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
what's the point of releasing a game that does EXACTLY what some other game already has?
Ask Paizo. ;(
The only point of that would be simple re-presentation of material that is difficult to obtain or who's form is obsolescent. This is what motivated the cloning of 1e AD&D, the desire to make a more accessible text that was available online.
Another would be to continue ongoing support for a game that the original publisher has abandoned for whatever reason. The d20 SRD made that not only legal, but easy, to do for 3.5 - the GSL makes it virtually impossible to do legally for 4e.

And certain classes would make it easier to generate specific kinds of powers - the Wizard might get blast/burst for a lower cost, the Invoker multi-targeting for a lower cost, Druid close blast, and Psion getting to spam as examples of 4e controller options.
One of the oddities of 4e design that just stood out as inconsistent, to me, was controller role-support. The other 3 Roles were all neatly supported by class features. Leaders got encounter surge-triggers, strikers extra damage, defenders marking. Controllers, OTOH, just plain got better powers than everyone else. PH1, that was the Wizard just plain got better powers than everyone else. The Controller Role came off as an excuse to make Wizard spells strictly superior.

I've often thought it'd be nice to have generic powers by source, and have role support features interact/synergize with them. Instead of just plain getting better spells than everyone else, for instance, the Wizard could have some sort of metamagic feature that let him upgrade conditions or expand AEs.

Once you develop a 'mix-n-match' power attribute point value system, then you'll quickly find that this drives things in directions that 4e doesn't go. Frankly I do not believe that there is ANY possible point system you can make that will produce something close to the powers of 4e, not THAT close. I spent YEARS husbanding our game clubs mass space combat system, which was all heavily point buy, and I can tell you, there's no such thing as a universal point buy system. Synergies are just too powerful. Something that is worthless in one context is utterly dominant in another.
I assume you've seen Champions! and Hero System, I think we've talked about it before. Hero is a universal point-buy system (for powers, skills are a perniciously open-ended list). Hero was also the ultimate at what got called 're-skinning' in 4e - powers were just what they did, what they looked like and how they worked were a player-defined 'special effect.'

it would be VERY breakable and only restrained table rules would keep it playable
There ARE fairly viable point-based games out there, and powers still 'slot in' to a limited part of 4e, so it wouldn't seem perhaps impossible to do that, but you'd have had to revisit EVERY aspect of the game.
'Restrained table rules' are definitely a good idea. In Hero, there were typically attack & defense caps - in the Hero spin-off, Fuzion, there was a 'RoX' formula to generate them, but, frankly, it didn't work well. 'Restraint' was definitely where it was at. ;)
 

Another would be to continue ongoing support for a game that the original publisher has abandoned for whatever reason. The d20 SRD made that not only legal, but easy, to do for 3.5 - the GSL makes it virtually impossible to do legally for 4e.
But that's just it, you CAN 'support' 4e, by producing OGL-licensed products which conform with 4e. I mean there's a bit of a grey area there, but its not big enough to be afraid of. You're not redacting someone else's material, you're just producing an adventure, or a setting, or maybe a supplement that provides additional material for said game. You COULD run into the aforesaid problems with design patents or something if you published a 4e class and slapped OGL on it and said "For use with some version of an RPG not to be named" on the cover, BUT that's MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely than if you recapitulated the entire PHB!

The point is, as long as you're happy with 4e exactly as it is, you're golden, you can easily still buy 4e books, and given that brand new 1e core books still sell for basically around the prices they had in the 80's, given a bit of inflation, its unlikely that 4e books themselves will EVER be in really short supply. Not with Amazon and Ebay around.

So, the ONLY reason to talk about cloning is because you want to change the game. The ONLY reason Paizo wrote PF was to change 3.5, not simply to produce an identical book. They didn't do that, they created a slightly different game. Since you can't do that with 4e, there's just not going to be that sort of clone. This is why I concluded that I might as well make a hack that diverges a whole bunch if I want a 4e-like game that 'fixes' 4e.

One of the oddities of 4e design that just stood out as inconsistent, to me, was controller role-support. The other 3 Roles were all neatly supported by class features. Leaders got encounter surge-triggers, strikers extra damage, defenders marking. Controllers, OTOH, just plain got better powers than everyone else. PH1, that was the Wizard just plain got better powers than everyone else. The Controller Role came off as an excuse to make Wizard spells strictly superior.
I never understood why people have an issue with this. I mean it COULD be problematic if it was very easy to cop Wizard powers, but they aren't THAT much better than those of other classes, and MCing isn't cheap enough to make it a big problem. Hybrids certainly can benefit from being half-wizard, but in any case you can't get more than 50% wizard powers, and hybrid's weak class features mean they don't generally end up breaking anything. So really its more just a quirk of the class, something that sets them apart a little bit.

I've often thought it'd be nice to have generic powers by source, and have role support features interact/synergize with them. Instead of just plain getting better spells than everyone else, for instance, the Wizard could have some sort of metamagic feature that let him upgrade conditions or expand AEs.
Its feasible. I've worked on something like that in my game. It works, but of course you're well into the levels of 'total rewrite' when you start doing that. My answer was to attach a controller feature to each implement mastery.

I assume you've seen Champions! and Hero System, I think we've talked about it before. Hero is a universal point-buy system (for powers, skills are a perniciously open-ended list). Hero was also the ultimate at what got called 're-skinning' in 4e - powers were just what they did, what they looked like and how they worked were a player-defined 'special effect.'
I'm quite familiar with both games, and I'd say BOTH of them are quite friendly to reskinning actually, though it isn't quite built into the Champions! system in the way it is with Hero System.

'Restrained table rules' are definitely a good idea. In Hero, there were typically attack & defense caps - in the Hero spin-off, Fuzion, there was a 'RoX' formula to generate them, but, frankly, it didn't work well. 'Restraint' was definitely where it was at. ;)

Well, obviously you can make these games work at your table. They just lack the 4e attribute of being balanced from the start, which is nice because it lets you just not worry about the players. They can go do their own thing and you aren't blindsided at play time by something monstrous. I wouldn't condemn someone for making a point system like this, but I think it would change the game in significant ways and detract from its 4e-ness.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But that's just it, you CAN 'support' 4e, by producing OGL-licensed products which conform with 4e.
You can do so directly using the GSL, and there's always been a trickle of stuff there, it's just not a very attractive thing to publish under.

What you can't do is what PF did, launch a 'new' cloned game and support it, whatever happens to the original.

I never understood why people have an issue with this. I mean it COULD be problematic if it was very easy to cop Wizard powers, but they aren't THAT much better than those of other classes, and MCing isn't cheap enough to make it a big problem.
Strictly game-design aesthetics or 'elegance' in my case. Controller just sticks out as the odd Role out. It doesn't have a clear purpose, is the most dispensable role, but has the most dramatic and problematic form of support - powers that are just better than everyone else's. It's ugly.

And, if we're talking 'mutations,' it gets in the way of one hypothetical mutated trait I'd find particularly enticing: consolidating powers by Source.

I'm quite familiar with both games, and I'd say BOTH of them are quite friendly to reskinning actually, though it isn't quite built into the Champions! system in the way it is with Hero System.
Champions! went full-on 'universal' in it's 1989 4th edition (coincidentally enough), which is also when the generic rules were broken out into the Hero System Rulebook, yes.



They just lack the 4e attribute of being balanced from the start, which is nice because it lets you just not worry about the players. They can go do their own thing and you aren't blindsided at play time by something monstrous. I wouldn't condemn someone for making a point system like this, but I think it would change the game in significant ways and detract from its 4e-ness.
4e's balance is pretty impressive, for an edition of D&D, sure. I'm not sure a power-build system would hurt it, if it otherwise stuck with AEDU. I've never quite reverse-engineered or otherwise sussed how 4e powers were designed, anyway. They often seem quite arbitrary, to me.
 

You can do so directly using the GSL, and there's always been a trickle of stuff there, it's just not a very attractive thing to publish under.

What you can't do is what PF did, launch a 'new' cloned game and support it, whatever happens to the original.
Exactly. Although GSL isn't particularly suitable because it isn't clear you can continue to use that license if and when WotC EOLs it. You're best off using the OGL, it just means you have to maintain the "no mention of 4e" charade. Actually even that isn't absolute, as a factual statement along the lines of "this will work with 4e D&D" shouldn't run afoul of anything. GSL itself wasn't really so bad, it is just 4e overall wasn't conducive to 3PP products. Its not bad for adventure writers, except they rarely 'grokked' the game, but without access to DDI...
Strictly game-design aesthetics or 'elegance' in my case. Controller just sticks out as the odd Role out. It doesn't have a clear purpose, is the most dispensable role, but has the most dramatic and problematic form of support - powers that are just better than everyone else's. It's ugly.
As an avid wargamer and thus student of tactics and strategy I can say that 'control' (not a term of art, but it will do) is the sin qua non of military theory and practice. Get inside the enemy's decision loop and force him to react, you WILL win. So the FUNCTION is elemental to tactics, and represents the primary utility of mines, artillery, and even automatic weapons to a large extent (area denial, much like an AoE effect in 4e). Thus there's nothing at all 'odd out' about the role, whomever devised these roles was clearly well-versed in military science, as well as D&D. I don't really agree that it is the 'most dispensible' role either. Leader IMHO is often rather superfluous, being basically a trade-off of fixing damage instead of inflicting more. As for its form of support, what exactly is wrong with this? I mean people have spilled oceans of virtual ink on "4e characters are all the same whaaaaaaaa!!!!!!" and now we hear that some of them are different, and that's bad too! I think its actually fairly genius in that they're different in the one dimension that doesn't really break resource management. They still expend resources at the same rates as every other type of character, and need to 'recharge' on the same schedule. Yet they get to work a bit differently. I think its interesting. Its not impossible that it could be problematic, and you may want to argue that it creates some constraints on overall 4e design, but I suspect those constraints aren't strong enough to make a huge difference.

And, if we're talking 'mutations,' it gets in the way of one hypothetical mutated trait I'd find particularly enticing: consolidating powers by Source.
Agreed. If you are going to have source-based power lists (and I do have them in my hack, at least notionally, not much has really been done on fleshing out those lists so far) then you have balance the powers, and then you'll want to move the control element into something else. Personally I didn't want to have it be reduced to one single simple element that all wizards have (like say "impose the slowed condition on all targets UEOYNT" or some such). Instead I've worked on attaching it to implement masteries. So you get a choice of what SORT of controller to be. Orbs cloud the mind; staves daze, knockback, and prone; wands tend to slow, restrain, etc. My guess is tomes will just continue to enhance summons on the theory that a better summons IS a better form of control. That's probably enough masteries, though no doubt one or two more could be devised.


Champions! went full-on 'universal' in it's 1989 4th edition (coincidentally enough), which is also when the generic rules were broken out into the Hero System Rulebook, yes.
Yeah, we only played in the 80's when it was, I think, Champions! 2. Not a bad game, if you didn't try to be too much of a munchkin about it. I seem to recall the biggest weakness was in terms of putting constraints on your powers. For instance I recall making a 'wizard' character who's powers were all embued into his staff. Because it was a 'gadget' and in theory could be lost, and had limited charges per day, it was like 8x more powerful than basic inherent powers. I did get some blowback on that character... lol.

4e's balance is pretty impressive, for an edition of D&D, sure. I'm not sure a power-build system would hurt it, if it otherwise stuck with AEDU. I've never quite reverse-engineered or otherwise sussed how 4e powers were designed, anyway. They often seem quite arbitrary, to me.

There have been some (now sadly extincted) attempts on the WotC boards. As with most similar things, you can generate a fairly basic point value that will produce reasonably consistent results on most existing powers. However as soon as you go the other way and devise powers based on point values, all bets are off, you can create some stupidly nasty stuff that is just not expensive. Again, its all about synergy, or exploiting situational aspects of powers, and things like that. I don't think there's any 'system' to 4e power design, its literally eyeballs and playtest. And I would submit that they had minimal concerns about powers being too weak. As experience has shown, there's probably a good 25% of all powers that are just non-starters, and will only be taken by players who don't care or have entirely other concerns than effectiveness. Overall though it worked, most powers are at least serviceable and given the right thematics or simply a need to incorporate some specific effect they're worthwhile, if not 'sky blue'. They obviously did miss the boat in a few cases of course, and I suspect they also deliberately created a few 'signature powers' that they knew would be superior choices. TS clearly falls into that category, being effectively a ranger class feature.
 

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