D&D 4E 4e Pokemon Tabletop RPG

[Camelot]

This game will feel very different from the Pokemon video games and D&D. Instead of one vs. one or at most two vs. two battles, you will have four vs. four to six vs. six. Instead of being one character with a riveting background, you'll be one character that has nothing special about them with options on which battle style to choose from each battle. It's not supposed to be the same game as either of those games. Otherwise, there would be little point in creating it. I'm not asking whether I should try to do this, I want to know if anyone has any advice on how I can do it.

Power sources are pretty much the types, i.e., there are seventeen (or so, I can't exactly remember) power sources, and one Pokemon can draw from two power sources. A big difference from the video games is that each Pokemon does not have a number of resistances and vulnerabilities (to use D&D terms) that they need to factor into their battling. It's more focused on the moves, of which you'll have an increasingly large number rather than just four.

My thought on equipment was to build in the weapons into the Pokemon's class. D&D's weapons become physical weapons, like claws, teeth, and the entire body. D&D's implements become special weapons, like Bulbasaur's vines and leaves or Charmander's fire breath. You can use them whenever you want if you have the moves (physical weapons all get basic attacks), but one Pokemon can use different weapons more often depending on the strategy you choose for it. For example, Bulbasaur (which I began with, so it's more complete) can choose from being better at using its leaves or its vines. The strategy you pick influences the moves you pick, and thus the weapon you use more often. In addition, physical weapons get bigger and stronger as the Pokemon grows, balancing with a D&D character getting better weapons.

Items, I think, will work fine, too. The thing is, it will just be a very different concept than the Pokemon we're familiar with. The item range will be similar to that in D&D, with choices galore, each with a different effect on the Pokemon. This means, too, that Pokemon can hold many items at once, like a D&D character. I haven't quite got to writing stuff out for this yet, but this is my idea, and I don't see any reason for it not working.

As to encounter and daily powers: Pokemon need short rests (even in their Pokeballs) to get their encounters back. This is sort of like power points in the original games, but with a time range before they recharge rather than needing an item or a Pokecenter visit. Speaking of Pokecenter visits, these give your Pokemon the equivalent of an extended rest in D&D. The PM will have to do some storytelling to prevent trainers from repeatedly returning to the last town's Pokecenter to heal completely up for the next battle, though. I still need to think that out a bit more. Maybe Pokemon can only get one Pokecenter visit a day, for some reason.

But anyhow, I digress. We'll reach those milestones after a couple encounters. First I want to create workable (or at least seemingly workable) trainer concepts, as that is really where the game starts. You can't have Pokemon battles with no trainers, unless you want to go the Mystery Dungeon route (which would also be a viable option in this game. Hmm...would make a nice supplement). So, I want to come up with a bunch of ideas for trainer features, feats, and stuff, then move onto the rest. Any ideas on trainer features? I need features that reinforce the relative importance of the ability scores and further the class's goals (battler uses strategy, raisers deal damage, etc.). Thanks for the things to think about!

 

[malcolm_n]

Since we're not worried over making this fit into a D&D campaign straight across, there's plenty of play while keeping the concept of 4e. My take to start for trainers would be to include the same stats on trainers (or state which are equivalent) to pokemon. Keep in mind, I'm kinda working from the idea that trainer type = race. Since the trainer is ultimately less important than the pokemon (class), we can give it some minor benefits and a power that translates. The pokemon is the one with all the special features, etc. This also helps fill out pokemon across roles (Lapras is a leader, while pikachu's a striker and Tyranitar is a defender).

*Suggestion 1*
You could give your trainers Attack, S. Attack, Defense, S. Defense, Speed, and HP. The trainer's get a bonus (+2) to a stat at level 1 based on their trainer type, and the trainer's bonus from that stat (still assuming dnd numbers 18 is 4, 20 is 5 for example) adds to the base of all pokemon that trainer uses. A trainer (whichever it may be) who gets +2 to his speed, effectively gives all of his pokemon a +1 speed bonus over the base stat.
Pokemon, by contrast, can't have a level 1 stat higher than 13, or 15 if that stat is a favorite (geodude might get +2 HP, and Hitmonchan probably would get +2 Attack). When everything is said and done, this means that a pokemon could still start the game with anything scored between 8 and 20.
Example: As a Pokemon Breeder, Brock gets a +2 bonus to his HP stat, which Malcolm started at an 18, bringing Brock's HP to 20. All of Brock's pokemon get a +5 bonus to their HP stat at level 1, so his Geodude (with HP 15 starting) has a 20 hp stat and starts with +20 hit points at first level and 5 extra healing surges.

*Suggestion 2*
Strength = Attack, Dexterity = Defense, Con = HP, Int = Special Attack, Wis = Special Defense, Cha = Speed. Trainers follow dnd rules for stat generation, and as above their stat bonus adds to the pokemon's base. (Cha = speed because you're cheering your pokemon on and it technically can move faster from the encouragement... Okay, it's a bit of a stretch, but not horrible)
Example: Gary is a pokemon researcher. He gets a +2 bonus to his Intelligence, which started at 16. His 18 Intelligence raises the special attack of all of his pokemon by 4. Gary's Eevee starts with a 12 S. Attack, but because Gary is eevee's trainer, it's stat becomes a 16 instead.

 

[malcolm_n]

Hehe, broke down some math and I wanted to post it so I don't have to remember how it worked tomorrow. I'm assuming that we're keeping stats for trainers basic 4e stats. When generating scores, trainers get standard point buy for dnd characters. Pokemon work differently.
To create room for a variety of pokemon with different stats (or, dare I say, create some unique pokemon in the future), you have 12 points to distribute to each of the pokemon's adjusted stats.
This method works well in the world of pokemon to display how trainers tend to have pokemon more akin to their own personality, physique, and motivational bent. The 12 points helps define the pokemon's individual traits, so you can still have the fast guy with a tough kangaskhan, its just that his kangaskhan is slightly faster than most.
1) Start with 1x9 (to account for minimum 8 after adjustments) and 5x10's.
2) Adjust accordingly based on your trainer's bonuses.
3) spend your 12 points, remembering that no stat can exceed 18 before racial adjustments.
The end result will always be a dnd legal stat set, with the exception that a pokemon can have 2x9's, but I doubt anybody would really allocate points in such a way.
[sblock=example]Ash has the following stats after picking an array and adding +2 Dex/+2 Cha for his trainer type.
Ash's level 1 stats: Str 8, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 18

As a result, pikachu starts with these stats and has 12 points to spend between his ability scores.
Pikachu's base stats before points: Atk 8, HP 10, Def 13, SAtk 10, SDef 12, Spd 14

Allocating the 12 points gives pikachu the following (including +2 SAtk, +2 Spd)
Pikachu's starting ability scores: Atk 8, HP 13, Def 13, SAtk 16, SDef 12, Spd 18[/sblock] Or, technically, you could just have the pokemon use it's own array, completely separate of the trainer. The end result is the same, but there becomes no other perk for trainer stats.

 

[Camelot]

I'm not sure if I understand quite what you mean, Malcolm. I've tried to keep true to 4e more than Pokemon, so Pokemon have Strength - Charisma instead of Attack, Defense, etc. The trainer scores and Pokemon scores are seperate, but the trainer has influence on the Pokemon through his or her trainer class, of which most effects use the trainer's most important scores. I made the trainer parallel to the race and the Pokemon parallel to the class so that Pokemon could have whatever stats the trainer wants (I feel like in your example, the trainer has to pick Pokemon that go with his or her scores because they'd rather give Kangaskhan a Constitution boost, since it already has high Constitution, than a speed boost, since it wouldn't be able to utilize that speed), but the trainer still has a significant influence on the Pokemon (the trainer class as a race represents the training and influence the trainer has on the Pokemon, which can change from when the Pokemon is caught or if it is traded). The trainer's scores' most important use is in skill challenges, where the trainer's get to shine instead of the Pokemon being the main focus.

Instead of taking the Pokemon stats (Attack, etc.) and moving them onto trainers, I'm taking the trainer stats (Strength, etc.) and moving them onto Pokemon. However, they are two seperate sets of scores. The trainer has the same effect on the Pokemon as a race has on a class, but it's different in that the trainer, unlike a race, has its own set of scores. These don't directly influence the Pokemon, but they do through the trainer's features. Basically, instead of saying "your Pokemon gain a +1 bonus to Fortitutde" like a race would, it says "your Pokemon gain a bonus to Fortitude equal to your Strength modifier," in which case Strength is a tertiary ability, and thus on average gives a +1 bonus. This gives the trainer some variability, so all Battlers, etc., are not the same.

Sorry for the blocks of text. I have trouble explaining myself concisely.

 

[MaclimesZero]

This is exactly why I don't think D&D is the best option for a Pokemon RPG. Let me show you what I would do.

Trainers

Trainers have no stats or powers as we think of them. They have story-style descriptions, and they have XP. Whenever a pokemon earns XP, so does the Trainer. However, while a pokemon may level up at 100 XP, then at 250, then at 750, etc whatever, the trainer doesn't hit level 2 until 1000 xp, and so on.

Since they have no stats, what happens at each level? They gain a trait. A trait is a simple description of their personality, or a training technique, or other aspect of their training style. They each start with one, and gain a new one at every level. Here are two some sample traits:

Empathy - Your pokemon love and respect you. As an Encounter power, you can use Empathy: If one of your Pokemon would be subject to a Fear effect, or an effect that would force them to flee, the pokemon makes an additional save versus the effect with a +2 bonus.

Ferocious - You, and by extension your pokemon, are aggressive. As an Encounter power, you can use Ferocious: When an opposing pokemon moves and ends its move farther from your pokemon than it started, your pokemon may immediately move it speed towards the opposing pokemon.


Pokemon

Attributes
The Pokemon themselves have 6 attributes: Strength, Coordination, Toughness, Willpower, Charm, Speed.

Each type of pokemon starts with his stats allocated differently. For example, we'll use everyone's favorite: Pikachu.

Level 1 Pikachu starting stats
Strength 0, Coordination 4, Toughness 1, Willpower 1, Charm 2, Speed 5.

Speed functions as it does in D&D, and the other 5 function just like the ability scores in D&D. Except instead of the rather superfluous "score leads to modifier" system, we just cut straight to the chase.

Defenses
Okay, now each Pokemon has 3 defenses: Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, and Mental Defense. Melee Defense is equal to 10 + 1/2 level + Toughness. Ranged Defense uses Coordination, and Mental uses Willpower.

So Pikachu's defenses at level 1 are:
Melee: 11, Ranged 14, Mental 11

We have a base system to use that is fair bit simpler than the D&D 4e one. It may seem like a small change (some names, one less ability, one less defense), but in the scale of battle in which each person may control multiple creatures, the simpler you can make it, the better.

We'll also calculate Hit Points: (10 + Toughness) x Level

Attunements
However, now it's time to ADD a feature. Each Pokemon, instead of skills or weapon proficiencies, gets Attunements. This is a number based system that ties to the specific type of powers out there. Here's Pikachu's starting attunements:

Normal +1, Electric +4

Powers
NOW we can do some powers. Each Pokemon gets 2 At-Will powers, and 1 Encounter powers. There are NO daily powers anymore. Another simplicity factor. Here's the ones for Pikachu:

Thundershock
At-Will * Electric
Attack Action
Range: 10
Attack: Coordination vs Ranged
Hit: 1d8 + Electric Attunement damage

Growl
At-Will * Normal
Attack Action
Range: 5
Attack: Charm vs Mental
Hit: Target takes a -2 to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Thunderwave
Encounter * Electric
Attack Action
Range: 10
Attack: Coordination vs Melee
Hit: 2d8 + Electric Attunement damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).

Combat
Okay! Looks good so far! Now, rounds break down as 1 Minor action, 1 Move action, and 1 Attack action. Unlike in standard D&D, you CANNOT "trade down" actions to take, for example, a double move.

Finishing
Okay, there, I've got a fair bit thrown around. See what you think.

 

[Turtlejay]

While I think that pokemon would work out fine modeled by 4e's math, I think trainers might want to live outside it. Unless you are getting them involved in the battles, I'd give the Pokemon the combat stats, and the trainers the noncombat stats.

For example, if one of your Pokemon is built as a Kalashtar Psion, the trainer could pick a trained skill from the psion's class list and make it his. In addition, if the trainer would like to use the abilities of this Pokemon outside of combat (like Telepathy), he can, if he pulls out his Pokemon and does so. Downside being that it must rest before being at full capacity for a battle.

Maybe trainers start with stats like a D&D character, but with different consequences. Your 4 trainer types don't quite fit into 6 stats, but maybe make each stat apply to each trainer type, with two that give 'bonuses' (i like the across the board HP bonus described upthread, but that might be too much. maybe this bonus applies to one pokemon, or can be thought of as THP). The trainer classes would not need full combat writeups and powers, since they don't use them, but maybe allow them to choose the skill utilities at the levels at which they gain those powers (2nd, 6th, 10th, etc). To make each class special, include some of those nacent ideas you are working on.

For a casual fan of pokemon, this seems like a fun idea. I don't know how much help my input will be, so I won't be offended if you discount it all. . .just sharing my opinion.

Jay

 

[malcolm_n]

[sblock=quote from Camelot;5003978]I'm not sure if I understand quite what you mean, Malcolm. I've tried to keep true to 4e more than Pokemon, so Pokemon have Strength - Charisma instead of Attack, Defense, etc. The trainer scores and Pokemon scores are seperate, but the trainer has influence on the Pokemon through his or her trainer class, of which most effects use the trainer's most important scores. I made the trainer parallel to the race and the Pokemon parallel to the class so that Pokemon could have whatever stats the trainer wants (I feel like in your example, the trainer has to pick Pokemon that go with his or her scores because they'd rather give Kangaskhan a Constitution boost, since it already has high Constitution, than a speed boost, since it wouldn't be able to utilize that speed), but the trainer still has a significant influence on the Pokemon (the trainer class as a race represents the training and influence the trainer has on the Pokemon, which can change from when the Pokemon is caught or if it is traded). The trainer's scores' most important use is in skill challenges, where the trainer's get to shine instead of the Pokemon being the main focus.

Instead of taking the Pokemon stats (Attack, etc.) and moving them onto trainers, I'm taking the trainer stats (Strength, etc.) and moving them onto Pokemon. However, they are two seperate sets of scores. The trainer has the same effect on the Pokemon as a race has on a class, but it's different in that the trainer, unlike a race, has its own set of scores. These don't directly influence the Pokemon, but they do through the trainer's features. Basically, instead of saying "your Pokemon gain a +1 bonus to Fortitutde" like a race would, it says "your Pokemon gain a bonus to Fortitude equal to your Strength modifier," in which case Strength is a tertiary ability, and thus on average gives a +1 bonus. This gives the trainer some variability, so all Battlers, etc., are not the same.

Sorry for the blocks of text. I have trouble explaining myself concisely.[/sblock]Okay, I believe I see what you mean. Help me line these up if I'm mistaken
1) the Trainer has stats, a race, and a class.
2) the trainer is the effective "race" for the pokemon and the pokemon is the class of the player.
3) as the pokemon's "race," the trainer adds benefits like bonuses to defenses, a power, and other attributes based on what that trainer's particular style may be (ie a battler may give the pokemon a bonus to fortitude equal to his strength modifier and the battler's strategy power)

So, how do the stats you've lined up (primary, secondary, tertiary) affect the pokemon? In the OP, you mention giving these meaning for the trainer; you could do a one thing with it that I can think of.
[sblock=Suggestion]The primary score from the trainer gives a scaling bonus equal to its modifier to the pokemon's attack or damage (like striker damage bonuses or fighter weapon talent), and helps increase skill checks. The secondary scores are tied to added effects of pokemon (like brutal scoundrel adds a rogue's strength modifier to damage, and Artful dodger usually lets the rogue shift or perform with flair. I don't know about a tertiary score, since that spreads out stat bonuses even further than standard dnd and could cause MAD.[/sblock]I see that you have 4 to 6 pokemon who are supposed to be controlled by players, and a pokemon trainer controlled by who? If the trainer is there for skill challenges and controlled by a separate PC, what do the players with pokemon do during such challenges?

When I'm creating something, it often helps me to create a level 1, level 11, level 21, and level 30 character of that type. I start filling in information as I go and compare to similar characters made in standard dnd for complexity/power level. Just thought I'd offer that as advice which may get your creative side rolling.

 

[Camelot]

[sblock=TurtlejayOkay, I believe I see what you mean. Help me line these up if I'm mistaken
1) the Trainer has stats, a race, and a class.
2) the trainer is the effective "race" for the pokemon and the pokemon is the class of the player.
3) as the pokemon's "race," the trainer adds benefits like bonuses to defenses, a power, and other attributes based on what that trainer's particular style may be (ie a battler may give the pokemon a bonus to fortitude equal to his strength modifier and the battler's strategy power)[/sblock]Yes, I believe you are coming to understand. The trainers are all human, of course, so they don't have their own race to complicate things. They just have a class, which is effectively in D&D terms the race for each of the trainer's Pokemon. Let me try to give an example.

Ash is a Battler. His scores are Strength 14, Constitution 12, Dexterity 10, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 13, Charisma 11. He has a Pikachu, which is built like a D&D class striker. In addition to Pikachu's features (which include its own ability scores, size, speed, vision, natural armor, bonus to defense, weapons, hit points, healing surges, features and powers), Pikachu gets the following bonuses because Ash is a Battler.

Basic Instincts: A +1 bonus to basic attack rolls (Ash's Wisdom modifier).
Offensive Strategy: A +2 bonus to attack rolls when it is injured (Ash's Strength modifier).
Strategic Release: A +3 bonus to initiative if it is the first Pokemon released in the battle (Ash's Intelligence modifier).
Battler's Tactics: The battler's tactics power (which aids in accuracy. By the way, I changed the name).

The other features either weren't chosen by Ash or only apply to Ash's skills. Speaking of which, I'm not sure how you think skill challenges work, so here's how it works. It's pretty simple.

Pokemon don't have skills. They don't need them. They don't lie to people, use their knowledge of history, or perform acrobatic stunts. Anything similar to that would be a feature or a power. Trainers, since they lack powers (being a race), get the skills, which are based off of the Trainer's ability scores. The player controls one trainer who controls his or her Pokemon.

In the example game, there are five players, each controlling one trainer. Each trainer has multiple Pokemon, but in each battle, they only need to send out one Pokemon at a time (and in regulated battles, they rule how many Pokemon are allowed per trainer to balance each sides' chances). Outside of battle, the players control the trainers as people, trying to complete the storyline. Occasionally, the trainers will face an obstacle that they cannot complete by battling, such as climbing up Mt. Chimney when the cablecar is broken, or asking around to find the secret lair of Team Rocket. This can be a skill challenge, and the trainer's use their skills, as five D&D PCs would, to help them complete it. Then, skill challenges are pretty much the same as D&D. Just as D&D characters don't frequently use their powers during a challenge, trainers usually don't need their Pokemon to complete a challenge, unless their are battles interrupting the challenge, or in rare instances when they can use their Pokemon to gain a bonus to a skill check (PM: You need to climb this cliff face. Trainer: I send out Bulbasaur to use his vines to lift me up the cliff! PM: Bulbasaur can lift you up a bit, but you must climb the rest of the way. You get a +2 bonus to your Athletics check.).

Just as race's help the character's skills a bit, trainer classes can help the trainer in certain skills. For example, the battler has the following skill related features. We'll use Ash as the example again.

Battler Versatility: Ash chooses three (his Intelligence modifier) skills and gains a +1 bonus in each skill when he creates his character.
Pokemon Knowledge: When Ash makes a Pokemon check (a skill that represents the trainer's knowledge of Pokemon) to learn the powers or traits of a Pokemon he is battling, he can roll twice and use either result.

So you see, everything is just as balanced as 4e.

I like the idea of creating a level 1, 11, 21, and 30 to see if it works across the board. Then you could fill in starting with 6, 16, and 26, since those are sort of mini-tiers.

The mechanics I have worked out will work. It's just the details of mechanics on specific things I need some help with. Is any trainer class to overpowered? Is any Pokemon too underpowered? What are some ideas for features and powers? These are the questions I'm asking, not whether this is a good idea or if I should use a different system. I'm sure a different system would work very well, it's just not what I'm doing.

I appreciate the help! I have heard some good ideas. I'll put up a list of the skills I have next, to see what everyone thinks. Thank you all!

 

[Camelot]

Skills

Here are the skills. If there is a skill you don't think should be there or one you think I should add, I would like to know. Remember, though, this is 4e, so the skills are more general than other systems.

ACROBATICS (DEX)
Same as in D&D.

ATHLETICS (STR)
Same as in D&D.

BLUFF (CHA)
Same as in D&D.

CIVILIZATION (INT)
Sort of like the contrast to Nature, or the Pokemon version of Dungeoneering. It started out as Structure, because it represents your knowledge of man-made contructions, but I widened it to include "constructions" like economy, technology and such. It's an idea that's perliously perched in my mind and I'm not sure what to do with it.

DIPLOMACY (CHA)
Same as in D&D.

ENDURANCE (CON)
Same as in D&D.

HEAL (WIS)
Same as in D&D, mostly. Pokemon do not die, they faint. If you're battling and your Pokemon is knocked to 0 or lower hp, it will start to faint. But it isn't necesarily out for the count yet. Trainers are allowed to rush to their Pokemon's side and try to heal it back to consciousness. This is more important in regulated battles where each trainer is only allowed to use one Pokemon in the battle. As for diseases, I'm not sure how that parallels to Pokemon just yet. I'm sure Pokemon have their own diseases besides the ridiculous Pokerus.

HISTORY (INT)
Same as in D&D.

INSIGHT (WIS)
Same as in D&D.

INTIMIDATE (CHA)
Same as in D&D.

LEGEND (WIS)
Represents the trainer's knowledge of ancient lore and legends. I don't know what Pokemon campaign wouldn't include some mysterious legendary entity, so this usually comes in handy in the long run of the game. However, it can also apply to legends about trainers, even current legends, like "It is rumored that the Viridian gym leader was recently seen somewhere in Fushia City."

NATURE (WIS)
Same as in D&D, except does not apply to knowledge of creatures. More for surviving in the wilderness.

PERCEPTION (WIS)
Same as in D&D.

POKEMON (INT)
Represents the trainer's knowledge of Pokemon. Can be used to learn Pokemon's types, weaknesses, powers, and non-combat related things like diet, evolution trees, etc.

STEALTH (DEX)
Same as in D&D.

STREETWISE (CHA)
Same as in D&D.

THIEVERY (DEX)
Same as in D&D.

As you can see, not much has changed from D&D, since these are the things humans do in both worlds. Arcana, Dungeoneering, and Religion have been removed since there is no magic (per say), Underdark (unless you're playing in a freaky homebrew world, in which case you could just use Nature), or gods (unless you're playing in a really freaky homebrew world, but the gods are usually just Pokemon, which can use the Pokemon and Legend skills) in Pokemon.

What do you think? Oh yeah, and trainers pick five skills to be trained in at level 1. The trainer's level equal the highest level of all his or her Pokemon.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Cool. I would collapse History and Legend, they're essentially the same thing. If they are supposed to be separate, that makes history a lot more boring (and honestly I think it already is borderline useless in a normal 4E game) if you don't know any interesting legends relevant to the game.

EDIT: And also Streetwise, since you said you know 'current' legends as well with the legend skill.