D&D 4E 4e Problem Skills: Group Stealth

[Arlough]

There are skills in 4e that I consider a problem because of their very design.

Perception, for example, only needs to be focused on by one of the group to prevent the DM from ever being able to spring an ambush on the group unless it is by DM fiat, which then makes the skill unreliable and of diminished value.

Endurance is an example of the opposite problem. If the party is faced with swimming across a lake, for example, everybody needs to be good at it or the whole party suffers.

Stealth, though, is the skill I will be tackling today.

How does this sound for a way to handle group stealth checks (sneaking past the dragon, for example)

Group stealth:

• One person is point, this is the person who makes the roll for that group.
• For each person in the group (including the point-man) there is a -2 to the stealth check
• Armor check penalties are cumulative.

The point person is dividing his/her attention between being quiet and helping the others be quiet, this is represented by the -2 per person in the group. Armor always makes it more difficult, so that is a cumulative penalty as well. Since this is replacing everybody having to do their own stealth checks, the assumption is that everybody is putting forth the effort to be stealthy and therefore none of the group can use an ‘aid another’ to assist the point-man in removing the penalty incurred.​

Thoughts?

 

[marelion]

Your idea sounds good in theory but I wonder whether your approach will really help the group being stealthier as a whole.

I just checked the maths for the group i am playing in. We are at Lvl 15, our cumulated ACP would e -4 for our Paladin in Plate with a Heavy Shield. Our point-man would be the Drow Rogue who has a Stealth modifier of 23. We are 5 persons, which would result in a penalty of -10, add in the ACP and our poor Rogue is down to +9. A Level 16 Monster from MM3 has a Perception check modifier of 13, so the group`s stealth attempt will still be beaten in ~60% of all cases. And here we already have a character with reasonably good skills as a point-man.

In my Calimshan party, which is at level 4 ATM, there are four group members, a point-men with a Stealtmodifier of +4 and a cumulated ACP of -6. So we are talking -10 Stealth vs Perception of +3.

As a first attempt to fix the maths for you, maybe you should cut the PPPP (Penalty Per Person Participating) down to -1.

best regards

 

[Arlough]

Your idea sounds good in theory but I wonder whether your approach will really help the group being stealthier as a whole.

I just checked the maths for the group i am playing in. We are at Lvl 15, our cumulated ACP would e -4 for our Paladin in Plate with a Heavy Shield. Our point-man would be the Drow Rogue who has a Stealth modifier of 23. We are 5 persons, which would result in a penalty of -10, add in the ACP and our poor Rogue is down to +9. A Level 16 Monster from MM3 has a Perception check modifier of 13, so the group`s stealth attempt will still be beaten in ~60% of all cases. And here we already have a character with reasonably good skills as a point-man.

In my Calimshan party, which is at level 4 ATM, there are four group members, a point-men with a Stealtmodifier of +4 and a cumulated ACP of -6. So we are talking -10 Stealth vs Perception of +3.

As a first attempt to fix the maths for you, maybe you should cut the PPPP (Penalty Per Person Participating) down to -1.

best regards

Thanks for the response. I am not against the idea of reducing the PPPP (I'm totally stealing that) I just want to clarify a few things first.
Quick question, is the rogue the only member of your party that is good at stealth.
I ask this because if not, then you could break the party into two groups(or more theoretically, or any combo of groups/individuals) with your Drow Rogue pairing up with the Paladin and the rest of the party doing combinations of group/individual checks.
That would make the Paladin-Rogue group down to a -6 for a total of 17, which means they would succeed against the monster 80% of the time (or did I misunderstand)

Now for me to clarify. The intent of this is not to make this a one person skill check. That would just be moving it from one problem area (Group nessesity skills) to another (Single specialist skill). The intent is to make it so that people who are good at things can somewhat compensate for people who are bad at those things.

But, I am in the process of crunching the math (and anyone else can feel free to do the same so we have multiple points of data and/or verification) and I will look for that.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I am not at my computer right now, but wotc published a group stealth rule that works pretty good.{edit: the rules are in the DMG 2}

You could probably adapt those rules for other skill checks like endurance.

I don't see a problam with perception...it is an individual check and those that fail can't act in the surprise round. This means a party can still be ambushed but the high perception guy/gal gets an advantage. Enforce the draw weapons and ready. Shield actions...or if you want to be mean consider all surprised combatants as 'prone', costing a move action to get oriented.
This coming from a long time dm who plays a seeker {41 passive perception!}


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[marelion]

Reported.

 

[Stalker0]

You could use the aid another rules to help you.

The point man makes the stealth roll for the group. Everyone else makes an aid another roll....but just not to fail.

If they fail, they put in the -1 penalty that aid another has. Else, they do not detrach from the stealth roll.