• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

4e Skill Challenges

GuJiaXian

Explorer
All right, I have to admit that, despite playing 4e as both player and DM, I simply don't get how to really integrate skill challenges, specifically the roleplaying-based out-of-combat ones. Every time I try one (specifically as the DM), it brings the flow of the game to a crashing halt as everyone takes turns trying to figure out how his or her character can meaningfully contribute to the challenge with whatever motley assortment of skills happens to be available. Players ask what the heck they can do with this or that skill. The DM hums and haws as he or she tries to make judgments. Suddenly everyone's stuck in initiative order, and it's not even combat. It feels artificial and forced. It is artificial and forced.

So, without inventing a whole new mechanic, how have others gotten around this issue? How have you integrated skill challenges transparently and seamlessly into play?
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

keterys

First Post
Honestly, I'd suggest taking a different route on them entirely. Figure out the good and bad results. Figure out scene shifts, complications, and progress changes as necessary. Don't even bother telling the players they're in one, and just play like normal, but the skill results matter.

So people want to sneak into something, they maybe research it ahead of time or case it there (success), make a group stealth check, athletics to climb around or bluff to get through, etc... whatever works as normal play, but you have an idea when to sound the alarm or whether to find the duke still in his chambers, based on their success or lack thereof.

And they get free xp and their skills mattered.
 

GuJiaXian

Explorer
So basically just do what I did in 3.x, only use the actual specific number of successes versus failures to determine outcome, rather than just winging it?
 

Theroc

First Post
So basically just do what I did in 3.x, only use the actual specific number of successes versus failures to determine outcome, rather than just winging it?


I'd say that sounds decent, but my experience is largely theoretical... and I don't know what you did in 3.x
 

So basically just do what I did in 3.x, only use the actual specific number of successes versus failures to determine outcome, rather than just winging it?
No I can't see this working too well.
In our group, I've yet to be involved in a skill challenge that didn't feel like a skill challenge but that's just me (or more to the point, it's a couple of people in our group who get a whiff of a skill challenge and start piling on the cheese as to why their best skill would be appropriate in every circumstance). If you have a look at Mike Mearls skill challenge articles on the official D&D website however, I think you'll have a much more complete perspective on how they could run and what would be lots of fun. However, this system seems like a large burden on the DM in terms of preparation.

For myself, I prefer the roleplaying of most things (which disadvantages the quieter types in our group) rather than mechanical meddling. If dice are going to determine an outcome, I prefer the roll to have a direct and significant in-game consequence rather than a possible consequence. To do skill challenges well, I know I have to completely change my gaming hat around to do it.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
The best way I've seen skill challenges presented was basically, "OK, here is your goal - to (escape the city while it's crawling with guards/sneak into the active keep's treasury/figure out how to make the ancient Dwarven transport mechanism work again). Tell me what of your talents and skills are you using to make this happen."

Then, let the players tell you what skills they're using, why they apply, and make the rolls and see what happens. The DM has the determination whether a given skill use makes sense, and any modifiers which apply.

Finally, if the players fail (which they might) make sure that it doesn't mean "GAME OVER", but that things just got harder for them, or more complicated -- let's say it means a tougher combat ahead, or they have to take a more dangerous way, or they lose some healing surges because of the onerous foot trek they have to take because they flubbed the "easy way."

I donj't know about the original poster, but they way we ran skill checks, and the example we were given in the 3E days, was to make a skill use a single success or fail roll; this way, with skill challenges, it gives players a chance to avoid flubbing one vital roll, or taking a skill and using it in ways that they didn't normally think about in a system which encourages characters to only become skilled in one or two (or five or six) specific skills.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
All right, I have to admit that, despite playing 4e as both player and DM, I simply don't get how to really integrate skill challenges, specifically the roleplaying-based out-of-combat ones. Every time I try one (specifically as the DM), it brings the flow of the game to a crashing halt as everyone takes turns trying to figure out how his or her character can meaningfully contribute to the challenge with whatever motley assortment of skills happens to be available. Players ask what the heck they can do with this or that skill. The DM hums and haws as he or she tries to make judgments. Suddenly everyone's stuck in initiative order, and it's not even combat. It feels artificial and forced. It is artificial and forced.

So, without inventing a whole new mechanic, how have others gotten around this issue? How have you integrated skill challenges transparently and seamlessly into play?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/260244-skill-challenge-play-examples.html is a decent thread about skill challenge examples in play - hope it helps.
 

delericho

Legend
I haven't ever used Skill Challenges in 4e, but I did port the concept across the my recent SWSE campaign with some success. They worked pretty well. My thoughts:

When to Use a Skill Challenge

- Use them only where appropriate. If only one PC can meaningfully contribute, this is probably best handled with a simple skill check. If there's no great drama to the scene, this is probably best handled with a simple skill check, or even just hand-waved. But if they are appropriate, Skill Challenges can be a great tool.

- Use them only where the outcome is in doubt. If the PCs are interrogating an NPC, and you want them to get the information, there's no point in going through the hassle of a Skill Challenge - just have the NPC break down, and move on.

- The consequences of success and failure have to be meaningful. There's a very poor (IMO) Skill Challenge at the start of "King of the Trollhaunt Warrens", where if the PCs succeed then they get where they are going, but if they fail then they are "punished" with a level-appropriate encounter that gives them treasure and XP. And then they get where they're going. (If they were unable to rest after this encounter, or if they were denied treasure and XP from it, that would be better.)

That said, you probably don't want a "succeed or die" Skill Challenge, or even a "succeed or fail the adventure" Skill Challenge. It seems players don't mind 'losing' as a result of a combat encounter (too much, at least), but they have 'losing' as a result of a failed Skill Challenge.

How to Use a Skill Challenge

- Everyone must contribute. I told my players this one up-front - if they had their character just "do nothing", then they'd be assumed to be "getting in the way", and that would count as an automatic failure. Even if their only action was Aid Another, they had to contribute.

(You may think that while the Warlord is haggling with the baron, the best thing your Barbarian can do is say nothing. And it might well be. But if he stands there glowering, and looking like he's about to fly into a homicidal rage at any moment, even that can affect the Warlord's ability to work his charm.)

- Be flexible in the use of skills. See that section in the DMG, the one that talks about 'primary' and 'secondary' skills for the Skill Challenge? Take a big black marker and cross that out - you'll do better to wing it. Have the player describe what they do (which skill they use), then decide if that is directly applicable (primary), or tangentially applicable (secondary).

For secondary skills, I then decide whether the roll will count directly towards the total number of successes, or whether it will simply make other rolls easier. If the former case, I will use a higher difficulty for the roll. In the latter, I will use the normal difficulty, but success will only give a +2 bonus on the next "primary" skill roll.

- Sometimes, they didn't even have to roll. If the players came up with something I hadn't anticipated, and it was a really good idea (as happened twice in my campaign), this was good for an automatic success. Likewise, there were a couple of 'extended' Skill Challenges in the campaign where if the party achieved certain story goals, this was also good for an automatic success.

- I use a flat difficulty number. The campaign I was running ran from 2nd to 7th level, which was basically a "low-level" campaign. For all Skill Challenges throughout, I was using a flat difficulty of 15 for all rolls. This meant that at the start of the campaign, the party failed a lot of rolls, but by the end they were succeeding almost all the time. This gave a distinct sense of progress as the campaign went on - characters became noticably more competent.

Had the campaign gone on much longer, I would have moved to a flat difficulty of 20, but the Skill Challenges would also have become manifestly harder.

- Adjust the success/failure ratio. As written in the DMG, Skill Challenges are too hard. I adjusted this by requiring 3 successes for every 2 failures (rather than 2 for 1, as written). So, it would be 3 for 2, or 6 for 4, or 9 for 6, and so on.

- Narrate 'partial results' for every roll. In a chase scene, if the PCs win a success then you should note that they have found a short-cut, or knocked some boxes in the path of their pursuer, or whatever. If the PCs fail, one of them trips, or a carriage pulls into their path, or they turn down a blind alley, or...

- As with combat, keep it fast. I have a table rule in combat that when your turn arrives, you have to start declaring your first action within 30 second, or you lose your turn. For most Skill Challenges, I use the same rule. Basically, if things are happening 'fast', I expect the players to be decisive. (Of course, I don't use this for every Challenge. It's not appropriate when negotiating passage, when researching in a library, or similar. However, for chase scenes, fast talking, or negotiating an asteroid field, it helps a lot.)

Anything else?

Only this: if you find that Skill Challenges aren't helping your game, don't use them. The game ran just fine without them for 30-odd years, and will run fine without them in the new edition. I like the concept, and find the (modified) mechanics helpful, but YMMV.
 

GuJiaXian

Explorer
Delericho, that's some good advice. I still want to keep skill challenges as transparent as possible; ideally, players never even realize they're in one.
 

wayne62682

First Post
The consequences of success and failure have to be meaningful. There's a very poor (IMO) Skill Challenge at the start of "King of the Trollhaunt Warrens", where if the PCs succeed then they get where they are going, but if they fail then they are "punished" with a level-appropriate encounter that gives them treasure and XP. And then they get where they're going. (If they were unable to rest after this encounter, or if they were denied treasure and XP from it, that would be better.)

I have to disagree with this. Since a Skill Challenge is meant to replace a combat encounter, failing it means that you now will have less XP than you're supposed to have - facing the encounter as "punishment" for losing the Skill Challenge ensures that your XP total stays the same so you don't fall behind the curve.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top