4E subforum?

[glaucon]

Yeah, they kind of do. It's mythological.

Feel free to make a point.
All they require is a realm, not an entire plane.

...yes. They were angels. They killed their god, and were cursed. What, are they supposed to somehow break free of their ancient home-turned-prison in order to hike across the universe to set up shop in the domain of their omnicidal ancient enemies? Why would they do that?

You missed the entire point.
Clearly, demons and devils are related. It doesn't make sense therefore, for the two to have diametrically opposed 'sources'..

 

[FireLance]

Clearly, demons and devils are related. It doesn't make sense therefore, for the two to have diametrically opposed 'sources'.

"Clearly" from which perspective? Real-world mythology? The 2e cosmology? The 3e cosmology?

In the standard 4e cosmology, broadly speaking, demons are elementals corrupted by evil (and hence come from the Abyss in the Elemental Chaos) and devils are angels corrupted by evil (and hence come from the Dominion of Hell in the Astral Plane). They may be related in that they were both corrupted by evil, but they started out as two different types of creatures.

 

[the Jester]

I was just hoping to see what people have done with respect to the 4E Manual of the Planes. The book is (IMO) total garbage. Little but a glossed over perusal of the planar structure.

Holy cow, I thought it just dripped flavor, especially the chapter about the Feywild.

Different strokes and all that, I guess.

 

[lutecius]

"Clearly" from which perspective? Real-world mythology? The 2e cosmology? The 3e cosmology?

I'd say real world mythology. The two are often interchangeable.

I agree that the Fey needed a plane of their own but the demon/devil change is a bit odd. Switching the succubus to devil makes sense but other demons (the balor, notably) still look more like devils than elementals. If they couldn't be made more distinct, the fiends should have been merged. Devil could be a type of evolved demon.

If the designers absolutely wanted an elemental counterpart to devils (but i thought the point of the new cosmology was to eliminate redundancies and needless symmetry) they should have made the parallel more explicit (like for angels and archons.) Making devil and demons completely unrelated when they look so similar is a bit clunky.

 

[Dannager]

Feel free to make a point.
All they require is a realm, not an entire plane.



You missed the entire point.
Clearly, demons and devils are related. It doesn't make sense therefore, for the two to have diametrically opposed 'sources'..

glaucon, you are clearly coming in here with some very strong preconceived notions about what should be.

The problem is that these preconceived notions are based entirely in an imaginary fantasy world, and the very idea of what "should be" in such a world is really in no one's hands but its creators'.

Statements like, "Clearly, demons and devils are related," do not need to be taken at face value. Likewise, "All they require is a realm, not an entire plane," requires just as much justification as any other claim about this make-believe world (which is to say, frankly, none).

 

[Jack99]

lol

Egads man. Seriously?

There was no content.
They literally 'sketched' out the arrangement of the planes, and then mentioned a few of them...

Then again, I'm coming from the POV of DM'ing a hardcore Planescape campaign that lasted 6+ yrs...

The current and thus most popular edition of D&D is traditionally discussed in the general forum. ATM it is 4e, but when 5e comes out, 4e will most likely get it's own forum.

With that said, I completely disagree with you. The MoP is a great book and full of flavor and ideas. It's a book for DM's.

Now, you might not like the ideas, because you prefer those presented in the 2e Planescape-setting. Which is all good, really, after all, it is one of the best settings.

But I can assure you that the current cosmology works very well, for a lot of people. The Feywild is an awesome source of mystery and adventure, a plane away from the mortal realm, without it being too weird or alien, nor too far away.

 

[Wepwawet]

Fey need their own plane????

Of course not! They don't even exist!
At most they live under some hills, also called Sídhe.

The Abyss is elemental but 'Hell' is somehow Astral???

Yeah, makes no sense...
Everybody knows that they all live in the fires of hell, under the earth, while the Angels of Our Lord keep them under control.

EDIT: Oh wait! We're talking 4E D&D

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I'd say real world mythology.

Now, if only one 'real world mythology' existed and the interpretations of demons and devils hadn´t changed constantly depending on age and culture. I always liked Platons take on, demons, forex, who saw them as mediators beween gods and humans. But of course, the rip-out-stuff-kind is better for most D&D campaigns, i admit.

 

[glaucon]

glaucon, you are clearly coming in here with some very strong preconceived notions about what should be.

The problem is that these preconceived notions are based entirely in an imaginary fantasy world, and the very idea of what "should be" in such a world is really in no one's hands but its creators'.

Unless one has just begun playing D&D, we all come with some preconceived notions. Each of us have our own experience with the game. Mine happens to be such that elements of a system (even a fantastical one) should make sense.

I agree with you however, concerning who decides what 'should be'. Luckily for me that in my case, it is me.

I'm just surprised that in this case, the 'official'(sic) arbiters chose to so drastically alter (unreasonably, IMO) what has come before.

 

[glaucon]

But I can assure you that the current cosmology works very well, for a lot of people.

I'm sure that, as far as game mechanics goes, it's fine. As has been said here, when it comes to the fantastical, what 'should be', is ultimately arbitrary.

My concern however, was more about the cosmological architecture itself, and its contingent consequences. If a demon is elemental and a devil is astral, how does one explain their mutual enmity? How is it that faerie enjoy a particular plane of existence whilst, say, dragons do not?

Again, as has been pointed out, these situations need not have a sensible justification. As a DM however, I feel they do need such a justification, where there once was one, and now is not...

I'm sure that if in 4E it was decided that dragons do not have breath weapons there would be mass discomfort, as opposed to people saying "Oh well, it's new and different"...

In any case, it wasn't my intention here to ruffle feathers.

I'm off to start mass-converting....