5e GMs - Why or Why Not Wandering Treasure?

[Sadras]

Yeah, minions always struck me as one of those designs that was made strictly for gamist purposes, realism be damned; and while I can see what they were trying to accomplish and why, there's better ways of doing it.

I'm curious, what better ways are you envisioning for the creations of mooks or minions? Personally I'm a big fan.

Swarms and mobs are very much created along the same way i.e. gamist, as was reflected in the recent zombie horde thread where everyone was offering very much "non-realistic" approaches of dealing with a zombie horde. The 5e Lair and Legendary actions are also very much gamist creations to replicate a thematic action sequence and threat level. I do not see why the minion 1hp mechanism gets picked on for being particularly gamist considering that hit points are really plot points.

 

[Blue]

minions always struck me as one of those designs that was made strictly for gamist purposes, realism be damned; and while I can see what they were trying to accomplish and why, there's better ways of doing it.

This is a bit tangential to the thread topic, but I thought I would say that I don't see what's unreaslistic about killing an enemy in a single blow. Conan does it in the REH stories quite a bit; and I believe it sometimes happens in real life.

There are plenty of great scenes in movies, books, legends about heroes fighting through hordes of weak creatures. Many editions have had the "gamist" idea of a swarm of weak creatures, any of which is inconsequential. Minions does it on a bit more of a macro scale. Where they don't have to stay all together in a swarm and are large enough to be represented by a mini.

For those who don't like 1 HP, it's easy enough to yoink how 13th Age does it. They have a pool of HPs for the mooks. So maybe you have either 12 HP mooks. You have a pool of 96 HPs, and every 12 damage to it one dies. One person does 15, then next only needs to do 9 more to kill one. You kill more then one with an action you get to describe how you cleave through, or pierce multiple with an arrow, or your explosion gets more on the edge, or whatever.

 

[5ekyu]

There are plenty of great scenes in movies, books, legends about heroes fighting through hordes of weak creatures. Many editions have had the "gamist" idea of a swarm of weak creatures, any of which is inconsequential. Minions does it on a bit more of a macro scale. Where they don't have to stay all together in a swarm and are large enough to be represented by a mini.

For those who don't like 1 HP, it's easy enough to yoink how 13th Age does it. They have a pool of HPs for the mooks. So maybe you have either 12 HP mooks. You have a pool of 96 HPs, and every 12 damage to it one dies. One person does 15, then next only needs to do 9 more to kill one. You kill more then one with an action you get to describe how you cleave through, or pierce multiple with an arrow, or your explosion gets more on the edge, or whatever.

i just give the peons a typical amount of HP for their status and let them get mowed down per the rules. i dont need special pools or hit point spread or bypass that suddenly manifests itself in certain fights and vanishes at other times.

if the 11th level group can mow thru the dozen or two dozen 2nd level guys thats great... i dont need to have a whole new set of rules for it. While that rout is happening the adults in the room or the keep are doing stuff and that is likely going to matter more than the splattefest - so really the "threat" of the mobs is the time spent.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'm curious, what better ways are you envisioning for the creations of mooks or minions? Personally I'm a big fan.

Just make them level 1 or level 2, as best represents their ability. It worked for every edition prior to 4E, and the only reason they needed to change it was because the 4E math didn't permit you to fight things that were ten levels lower than you.

Well, that, and the fact that non-minion monsters in 4E were much tougher and more complex to run than they had been in any prior edition. (I'm not sure that a level 11 fighter even could one-shot a level 1 soldier.) Just bringing in a bunch of level 1 chumps would have been disruptive to the flow of the game.

I do not see why the minion 1hp mechanism gets picked on for being particularly gamist considering that hit points are really plot points.

Not everyone agrees with that consideration. From my perspective, the rules of an RPG reflect the reality of the game world, and hit points reflect how much physical injury you can withstand before dying. The game is a simulation, although admittedly a somewhat-abstract one.

Other editions could be approached from either perspective. Things like lair actions and legendary actions can be seen as honest attempts to better reflect a certain type of reality, where the standard rules fall short.

Minion rules don't do that, though. Minion rules are the most-egregious break from simulation in the entire game, which is why everyone picks on them. There is no consistent definition of damage and hit points which permit an orc to have 1hp while a goblin has 20hp. Of course, if you go into the game with the assumption that rules only reflect narrative convention, then it wouldn't seem out of place at all.

 

[Staccat0]

My current campaign takes place in a region that used to be especially magical. I have a random table of 100 “magical trinkets” that mostly do useful but mundane things. The sort of things an iPhone app does. My random encounters always have the potential to turn out with a magical thing.

I use two columns and try to make sense of the ways they collide. So sometimes you find a Magic Woodcutter’s Axe on a stump in the forest. Other times you find it in the hands of an orc or wandering merchant.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Minion rules don't do that, though. Minion rules are the most-egregious break from simulation in the entire game, which is why everyone picks on them. There is no consistent definition of damage and hit points which permit an orc to have 1hp while a goblin has 20hp. Of course, if you go into the game with the assumption that rules only reflect narrative convention, then it wouldn't seem out of place at all.

In my opinion it just requires some elastic thinking (and only mentioning this as an aside as no one wants another HP thread).

Your 1HP minion is not as skilled as the 20 HP goblin. HP are a part of the game reality and the reality says that HP is the ability to avoid harm, not take damage. Minions for whatever reason, are numerous and they aren't as able to avoid harm as a more skilled person.

Done.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I think my way of approaching wandering treasure is to just abstract it out to the larger picture of "how do I want to reward and penalize my players and what example do I want to reinforce."

If I'm interested in spending some time every session with the players attempting to search everything (like an old school 1e 10ft pole fest) then I'll keep a list of some treasure off to the side that hasn't been placed and will place it when someone does something cool to find it.

If I'm interested in moving the game along, I'll still keep a list of things I know the players might find useful given their builds and at the least, expose a side plot for how they can get those things if they do something cool. At that point whether or not the players want to go after it allows them the agency to change whatever the main plot is for a few sessions.

Either way, under no circumstances will I increase the overall amount of treasure that I'm giving out for the module or event. Getting something earlier will result in something else being taken away in the first case, even if it's just coin. If we're running the second way, then of course the players will have a chance to earn everything I initially placed as they need to still go through the motions to get whatever it is.

The risk you run with wandering anything, is increasing the power level of the group beyond what you've already balanced out. For some folks that isn't a problem, for others it's a big one. In my case, I always game with at least one player that can turn gold into campaign changing power, if I'm running a game, I take great care to balance things before I give them out. Taking things away after the fact is usually very damaging to trust.

 

[Sadras]

Your 1HP minion is not as skilled as the 20 HP goblin.

Not necessarily the case, the 4e minions dealt level-appropriate damage and also had level appropriate AC, saves, abilities...etc. It was a way of making lower-level monsters a threat to higher level characters.

EDIT: The 5e system, although flexible enough to easily allow for it, has the bounded accuracy mechanism to keep low-level monsters relevant for longer.

For me the 1 hit point is not so much as a train smash - I'm imagining Starship Trooper I style, where initially Rico and his roughnecks progressed from having to empty out entire magazines loads to kill one zerling to the end of the show where they were cutting down numerous bugs just with one 6 second burst. Reality simulation be damned.

 

[S'mon]

i just give the peons a typical amount of HP for their status and let them get mowed down per the rules. i dont need special pools or hit point spread or bypass that suddenly manifests itself in certain fights and vanishes at other times.

if the 11th level group can mow thru the dozen or two dozen 2nd level guys thats great... i dont need to have a whole new set of rules for it.

I agree. The D&D hit dice rules create great 'minion' rules, I see absolutely no need for 1 hp minions or transferable hp. The only issue I see in 5e is that some monsters have inflated hp (& nerfed damage) compared to 1e norms. If you go back to about double 1e AD&D hp in most cases you get good amounts - eg an ogre with 38 hp not 57 hp is a good minion for high level play. A zombie with 18 hp not 23 hp + save vs dying works well at mid level. At lowish level 9 hp cultists and 11 hp guards make good minions.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Not necessarily the case, the 4e minions dealt level-appropriate damage and also had level appropriate AC, saves, abilities...etc. It was a way of making lower-level monsters a threat to higher level characters.

EDIT: The 5e system, although flexible enough to easily allow for it, has the bounded accuracy mechanism to keep low-level monsters relevant for longer.

For me the 1 hit point is not so much as a train smash - I'm imagining Starship Trooper I style, where initially Rico and his roughnecks progressed from having to empty out entire magazines loads to kill one zerling to the end of the show where they were cutting down numerous bugs just with one 6 second burst. Reality simulation be damned.

Perhaps but lets get simpler because you're building a construct around the problem that doesn't need to exist.

The ability to avoid damage is not relative to, nor does it have to be tied to the ability to cause damage. So literally, as I said it above. Minions are not as skilled at avoiding harm.