D&D 5E 5E: Is it possible?

[Feeroper]

I'm not asking whether it's technically possible to produce a new edition (obviously it is). I'm not asking whether the new edition can be a good game (it can be).

No, what I'm asking is whether it's even remotely possible whether the new edition can achieve the main goal set for it by the designers and the corporate entity that employs them: to unify the players of all the different flavors of D&D in one big happy family, all using the same rules (well, not really the same rules because of the modular approach, but that's a whole different kettle of fish I ain't touching here), all content to abandon the games we've found over the past dozen years that we really, really like for a game that isn't exactly what we want, but sort of resembles what we want if we squint and don't turn the lights on too bright.

The reason I'm asking is that this seems rather less likely than, say, me winning the lottery half a dozen times in a row while Eva Mendez rubs my feet and Christina Hendricks makes me a nice ham sammich. I currently play Pathfinder, and I'd say that, for my desires, it gets about 97% of the rules right. Why would I abandon that for a new game that gives me 40% of what I want? Likewise, why would a player of a 1E, 2E, BECMI, or 4E game give up his current game to play something that's very clearly not a 1E, 2E, BECMI, or 4E game?

In WotC's best-case scenario, how does 5E unify a fractured community that, for better or worse, has a wide variety of games that it likes perfectly well, thank you? What's the path they take to get from Point A to Point B?

Well that is the what they are attempting to show us. Just because we cant see it yet, or it doesnt exist at the moment, doesnt mean that it is impossible. Who knows how it will turn out? To play Devil's advocate here (and Im not insinuating that you are saying this in your post) just because something seem hard or even nigh impossible, does that mean that it shouldnt even be attempted? What if 5e comes out and revoloutionizes the game? What if they succeed on their vision and craft a game that does unify the audience? I personally think that this goal they have set themselves is a good one to have. It may be very difficult to achieve, but arent there alot of great things that started out as a seemingly impossible vision initially? For example, should Apple have given up when they were at their lowest state as it was impossible to regain any kind of a foothold? Clearly we now know the answer to that, but before their acension, well before the ipod, Apple was not a serious contender to a company like Microsoft or IBM.

 

[Ramen]

I don't think the new edition is going to dislodge those players who already have a version they like and won't play other editions. No version will make them switch over to it except a reprint of their system.

What D&DN needs to focus on is the players who have more flexibility in their preferences and also new players. Since each edition of D&D has had fundamental changes to the rules and options this is going to be a big task.

However I think the direction they are shooting for is the right one. One system that can be used to replicate your favorite way to play. Giving options and tools in core is the only way to do that.

I also advocate a big bold part at the beginning of the core books that says. "All these rules are suggestions for you to use, modify , or ignore in Your Game. They are there for you to have fun, not get in the way."

 

[DMKastmaria]

For B, the expanded player base. Or, if your current edition is not in print, for renewed support and new material. Or, if there are things about your current edition you find unsatisfactory (come on, do you really love absolutely everything about it?), the possibility that D&DN might address them.

There's a ton of new support material being published for every previous edition (except 2nd and its compatible enough with the earlier stuff that it's not much of an issue.)

 

[DMKastmaria]

This is particularly true for older editioners. People with an edition they like who haven't bought new materials in some 20 or so years, aren't very inclined to pick up a new edition. I question the logic in marketing heavily towards them.

Yeah, no ones spending any money on old edition stuff:

Dwimmermount: An Old School Fantasy RPG Megadungeon by Autarch — Kickstarter

Player's Companion for the Adventurer Conqueror King RPG by Autarch — Kickstarter

The Monolith from beyond Space and Time plus The God that Crawls -- Indiegogo

Myth & Magic Player's Guide - 2E Revived and Updated!!! by New Haven Games — Kickstarter

Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea by Jeffrey Talanian — Kickstarter

Granted, of some 300+ OSR items, those five are fairly high profile. But, the Kickstarter's provide ready sales data. In the case of those five, about $100k worth of sales data.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yeah, no ones spending any money on old edition stuff:

Dwimmermount: An Old School Fantasy RPG Megadungeon by Autarch — Kickstarter

Player's Companion for the Adventurer Conqueror King RPG by Autarch — Kickstarter

The Monolith from beyond Space and Time plus The God that Crawls -- Indiegogo

Myth & Magic Player's Guide - 2E Revived and Updated!!! by New Haven Games — Kickstarter

Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea by Jeffrey Talanian — Kickstarter

Granted, of some 300+ OSR items, those five are fairly high profile. But, the Kickstarter's provide ready sales data. In the case of those five, about $100k worth of sales data.

Well, for starters none of those things are "new" products, they're expansions or revisions to older products that are already popular with the target audience. Like the Paizo Adventure Paths. Second, none of those are by WOTC, they're all independent groups who are probably made up of members of the target audience.

So yes, older editioners will probably buy products marketed specifically at them. However, we're dealing with the question of: Will older editioners who haven't picked up a newer WOTC edition, buy a new edition of D&D by WOTC?

 

[DMKastmaria]

Well, for starters none of those things are "new" products, they're expansions or revisions to older products that are already popular with the target audience. Like the Paizo Adventure Paths. Second, none of those are by WOTC, they're all independent groups who are probably made up of members of the target audience.

So yes, older editioners will probably buy products marketed specifically at them. However, we're dealing with the question of: Will older editioners who haven't picked up a newer WOTC edition, buy a new edition of D&D by WOTC?

The five items listed above consisted of both adventure modules and 2nd wave clone rule-sets.

There are numerous "OSR" consumers, who have 3.x sitting on their shelf. Some even have 4e.

Many have Warhammer, Runequest, Dark Heresy, Barbarians of Lemuria, etc. A lot of OSR bloggers are looking forward to Goodman Games' DCC, which should be on its way to my mailbox, even as I type this.

Honestly, if you're going to assess the entire Old School market by the most vocal, curmudgeonly voice you can find on Dragonsfoot, then you're going to miss a lot.

Now, whether or not it's really worth WotC's time and effort to cater to the OSR as opposed to PF or 4e players, then no. Of course not. Not in an immediate, bottom line sense. But the idea that the OSR market isn't spending money, or wouldn't spend money on a 5e that suited its tastes, is absurd. And 40+ yr old Grognards tend to have a lot of discretionary income.

 

[P1NBACK]

Well, for starters none of those things are "new" products, they're expansions or revisions to older products that are already popular with the target audience. Like the Paizo Adventure Paths. Second, none of those are by WOTC, they're all independent groups who are probably made up of members of the target audience.

So yes, older editioners will probably buy products marketed specifically at them. However, we're dealing with the question of: Will older editioners who haven't picked up a newer WOTC edition, buy a new edition of D&D by WOTC?

Erhm. You're nuts if you think old school players aren't inclined to pick up "new" materials. I spent easily $150 or more in the past 6 months alone on awesome new products (such as Adventurer Conqueror King, Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG, LotFP modules, etc.). That's money that could have easily gone to WotC if they had product worth buying.

And furthermore, how does a clone or new spin on OSR games not constitute a new product? There is significant writing, editing, design, layout, production and playtesting going into these products. Dismissing them is just short-sighted.

Lastly, many of those consumers are interested in games period. If WotC produces a good game, they'll buy it. It has nothing to do with whether it's WotC or D&D.

Does that mean all old-schoolers will flock to 5E? Hell no. But, you can't assume marketing to them in addition to other demographics is a bad idea because it's not.

 

[Sunseeker]

The five items listed above consisted of both adventure modules and 2nd wave clone rule-sets.

I'm pretty sure that's what I said.

There are numerous "OSR" consumers

This is a fact.

who have 3.x sitting on their shelf. Some even have 4e.

This is a guess.

Many have Warhammer, Runequest, Dark Heresy, Barbarians of Lemuria, etc. A lot of OSR bloggers are looking forward to Goodman Games' DCC, which should be on its way to my mailbox, even as I type this.

Again...not WOTC or D&D titles.

Honestly, if you're going to assess the entire Old School market by the most vocal, curmudgeonly voice you can find on Dragonsfoot, then you're going to miss a lot.

I go by what I hear here, I think if I actively posted on more than one RPG forum, I would be driven mad. But the thing is, your statement there applies to WOTC marketing too, which was my whole point way back at the beginning.

If WOTC is altering their new edition to care to outspoken grogs who haven't purchased new WOTC, D&D material in 20-30 years, then they too are going to miss a lot. There are lots of players, who like you say, are interested in multiple editions, multiple games, and aren't outspoken at all. WOTC is going to miss a lot if they are designing DDN with the goal of drawing in people who have demonstrated no interest in their product.

Now, whether or not it's really worth WotC's time and effort to cater to the OSR as opposed to PF or 4e players, then no. Of course not. Not in an immediate, bottom line sense. But the idea that the OSR market isn't spending money, or wouldn't spend money on a 5e that suited its tastes, is absurd. And 40+ yr old Grognards tend to have a lot of discretionary income.

Sure, I'm not saying they're not buying ANYTHING at all ever, and they're probably one of the better markets when it comes discretionary income as you say. I'm just focusing on how readily they are buying WOTC products.

 

[P1NBACK]

If WOTC is altering their new edition to care to outspoken grogs who haven't purchased new WOTC, D&D material in 20-30 years, then they too are going to miss a lot. There are lots of players, who like you say, are interested in multiple editions, multiple games, and aren't outspoken at all. WOTC is going to miss a lot if they are designing DDN with the goal of drawing in people who have demonstrated no interest in their product.

Sure, I'm not saying they're not buying ANYTHING at all ever, and they're probably one of the better markets when it comes discretionary income as you say. I'm just focusing on how readily they are buying WOTC products.

There's something to be said having no interest in a product because it either A) does not speak to your needs or B) the producers have expressed disdain for your demographic.

WotC did both with 4E.

They are trying to do the opposite with 5E.

Yet, you're suggesting they go back to the old 4E method.

That worked wonders the first time they did it.

 

[Sunseeker]

That's money that could have easily gone to WotC if they had product worth buying.

That's my point, you're not buying WOTC products, you're buying remakes, clones, spin-offs of products you already bought. This evidence would suggest that the only way WOTC could get your money, would be to make a remake, clone, or spin-off of a product they already made.

And furthermore, how does a clone or new spin on OSR games not constitute a new product? There is significant writing, editing, design, layout, production and playtesting going into these products. Dismissing them is just short-sighted.

If Ford gets the rights to build a Hyundai, and paints it red, is it a new car?
No.

Does that mean all old-schoolers will flock to 5E? Hell no. But, you can't assume marketing to them in addition to other demographics is a bad idea because it's not.

It's the level of marketing to people who have for, several decades fewlt WOTC has nothing worth buying. That's a lot of history.