D&D 5E 5E skills and the Perception vs Stealth imbalance

[CapnZapp]

I currently have a 12th level rogue that almost never has to roll Stealth because none of the monsters can see him (minimum Stealth check of 23, not considering -5 for Dim Light). Also, again you can also have a single roll for all monsters, which removes the statistical deviation.

Yes.

The overall problem is that heroes seem overpowered in all respects.

I would much rather play a D&D where monsters are given more competitive skills overall.

Better at stealth (compared to heroes) and better at perception too (compared to heroes).

Obviously one and the same monster does not need to have both Stealth and Perception, and it is completely alright to keep many monsters with neither.

What irks me is the general mediocrity. There are too few monsters good at Stealth, especially monsters that SHOULD be good at stealth. There are too few monsters good at Perception. There are too few monsters good at both.

The rules seem to be content with a world where 10 (+0) is assumed to be standard within a party, as it is among monsters.

But most parties doesn't work like that. Most parties will contain at least one best-in-class character for each vital skill. The result is that if taken as a single entity, a "party" will outclass almost everything else.

It's just a way of playing on "easy mode" I don't care for.

Do note I'm talking about "group skills" where the worst of the "attackers" need to beat the best of the "defenders".

In a situation where the heroes climb or swim, and where everybody floats or sinks on their own result, there is no such "party" or group effect, and the rules work much better.

 

[eryndel]

For me, I haven't had the same issues with Stealth and Perception as you've had, Cap. In the situations you're describing, the stealth roll represents success or failure on hiding immediately before the ambush or conflict. It's the immediate precursor to initiative. So, in these situations, my high perception players don't have the opportunity to raise the alarm before initiative happens (and resolution of surprise).

Narratively, the stealth v. perception check represents the characters ability to spot the ambush before it's sprung, as opposed to observing the monsters as they are leading into the ambush, or as they are skulking about.

From a game perspective, this means that people who invest in Perception have a benefit over the other players as they are less likely to be surprised in the first round of combat, but it's not like that benefit transfers over to low perception characters. This means ambushes still are meaningful and interesting, and players have useful choices to make for their characters.

Note, this is how I run it for stealth leading into combat situations. The roll represents the key success/failure resolution immediately leading up to combat. For other areas of stealth v. perception (such as noticing the thief skulking through the alleyways, or being watched by someone in the shadows) that aren't as time critical, the timing of the stealth roll isn't as important.

My recommendation to how to fix this is to not allow the high perception character to raise the alarm by immediately rolling initiative. However, since this is a change from how you've been running it, you'd probably need to broach your group about it.

 

[Imaro]

To me, you and I are playing completely different games.

Perhaps... I'm playing 5e by the rules (at least in this case )... what are you playing?

When you say "Anyone who doesn't notice the monsters is surprised" I can only assume you're only rolling right there and then when the surprise round (as it were) is about to go down.

When do you roll? Now I'm going to assume your monsters aren't trying to be stealthy or ambush in the middle of a sunny field or sneaking about in brightly lit caverns... if this is correct let's take a look at our sources of light and vision...

Darkvision: 60'... in dim light see as if bright light, in darkness as if dim light... so max 60ft
Lamp: A lamp Casts bright light in a 15-foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet... so max 45ft max as if dim light
Lantern, Bullseye: Casts bright light in a 60-foot cone and dim light for an additional 60 feet... so max 120ft as dim light, but only in a cone.
Lantern, Hooded: A hooded lantern casts bright light in a 30-foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet... so max 60ft as dim light
Torch: Provides bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet... so max 40ft
Light cantrip: t sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet... so max 40ft

So with the major light sources above and the caveat that you are talking about hiding and ambushing in dark places ... tell me, at what distance are you having them roll to notice an ambush or to see stealthy creatures? And if it's greater than say 60ft or so... how are they pulling that off?

But if even one monster fails to beat the best character's score the rounds before, when they try to sneak up to the characters; or hide in their ambush spot, the whole ambush gets ruined.

What rounds? How are they detecting these ambushes so far away that movement and/or ranged weapons are ineffective in the surprise round? Do they have magic items? Class abilities. Because from the general sources of light and illumination distances this shouldn't be happening... and even at the farthest distances (which are still well within the scope of most ranged attacks) they should have disadvantage because most only afford dim light... which is a -5 on passive perception.

I mean I hope you'll agree that one character will sound the alarm as soon as he or she notices something, right?

Sure I agree... and if they choose to do that in the first round as their action... you still have a surprise round on anyone who doesn't make the check and if it's a single scout you have numerous attacks on them because they spent their turn raising the alarm as opposed to fighting or running away... and this assumes they beat all of the creatures initiatives otherwise you get to attack before they can do anything... and may stop them from raising any type of alarm.

So at this stage I can only assume you and I are talking about different things.

Again I am talking about 5e... I'm not sure what you are talking about until I get more details on how your players are detecting ambushes and hidden creatures (assuming favorable, i.e. dark or dim lighting, obscurement, etc. conditions)... could you elaborate? Then maybe we can reconcile these differences.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Not entirely relevant - but kinda awesome all the same.

 

[Springheel]

Sure I agree... and if they choose to do that in the first round as their action... you still have a surprise round on anyone who doesn't make the check and if it's a single scout you have numerous attacks on them because they spent their turn raising the alarm as opposed to fighting or running away

Shouting an alarm is an action? How would you justify that?

 

[Imaro]

Shouting an alarm is an action? How would you justify that?

I didn't assume shouting... I assumed some type of alarm like a bell, gong, spell, etc... especially since the character is supposedly scouting ahead of his party in the scenario I was talking about (I mean if they are close enough to hear him then they are probably within bow shot and can be heard themselves... right)? Otherwise the scout needs some way to let them know where he or she is...


EDIT: Also... how does hollering an alarm when scouting ahead in any way reveal where the attackers are... don't you have to make it back to your group and report on their positions?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Haven't we already had 75 different threads talking about stealth and perception? If a DM hasn't figured out how to run the two for their game by now so it works for their table, I don't see how treading the same ground once more here is going to help that person.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm not sure what you are talking about until I get more details on how your players are detecting ambushes and hidden creatures (assuming favorable, i.e. dark or dim lighting, obscurement, etc. conditions)... could you elaborate? Then maybe we can reconcile these differences.

I think we can get at the matter best by asking the following question:

Can your players ever stop an ambush from happening?

That is, get a warning in sufficient time to regroup, flee, barricade themselves or otherwise averting the significant detrimental effects of the ambush? To start the encounter when the enemy is still not prepared, coordinated, ready?

And do all this by utilizing their watchfulness (i.e. Perception; not talking about having magical alarms go off etc). In real life, getting a 6 second warning is effectively useless. Ideally you'd want minutes to be able to prepare a meaningful response to a sudden attack. But I can live with unrealistic response and reaction times; it is after all a fantasy game where combats are over in seconds.

If we need a definition, I would put a minimal amount of time for an encounter to qualify for this at 1 complete round, but ideally you'd need two turns: one for everyone to wake up and get their bearings, the other to grab your critical gear (your weapon, a quest item or whatever) and move to a better position (less exposed, closer to your allies, away from any major threats etc).

That is, two (or one) complete turn(s) regardless of surprise or initiative. Obviously you can gain extra turns by winning initiative and/or not being surprised.

I am fully aware there really aren't any rules for how you would realistically lack awareness if you're suddenly being kicked awake in the middle of the night. Some DMs would ask players to spend their action on "active Perception" or they would have to take their action "blind" (as in before the DM reveals the nature of the threat).

If your answer isn't "yes", then my answer is "we're both playing 5E but in entirely different ways".

---

As I said, when I'm myself a player I abhor the notion that monsters just jump out of the shadows at my throat from nowhere. It might make for a good game, but to me it just feels so videogamey and artificial.

So when I DM I try to avoid imposing that on my players.

Or rather, I want a good reason if and when it happens. One such good reason is if the math tells me such a resolution is statistically plausible.

 

[CapnZapp]

Haven't we already had 75 different threads talking about stealth and perception? If a DM hasn't figured out how to run the two for their game by now so it works for their table, I don't see how treading the same ground once more here is going to help that person.

What does this tell you about the rules as written?

 

[Imaro]

I think we can get at the matter best by asking the following question:

Can your players ever stop an ambush from happening?

That is, get a warning in sufficient time to regroup, flee, barricade themselves or otherwise averting the significant detrimental effects of the ambush? To start the encounter when the enemy is still not prepared, coordinated, ready?

Yes. I don't think anything I posted makes it impossible to avoid an ambush or an attack by monsters being stealthy... What running it by the rules does is make it a risk, which is what it should be.

And do all this by utilizing their watchfulness (i.e. Perception; not talking about having magical alarms go off etc). In real life, getting a 6 second warning is effectively useless. Ideally you'd want minutes to be able to prepare a meaningful response to a sudden attack. But I can live with unrealistic response and reaction times; it is after all a fantasy game where combats are over in seconds.

Again...Yes.

If we need a definition, I would put a minimal amount of time for an encounter to qualify for this at 1 complete round, but ideally you'd need two turns: one for everyone to wake up and get their bearings, the other to grab your critical gear (your weapon, a quest item or whatever) and move to a better position (less exposed, closer to your allies, away from any major threats etc).

That is, two (or one) complete turn(s) regardless of surprise or initiative. Obviously you can gain extra turns by winning initiative and/or not being surprised.

I am fully aware there really aren't any rules for how you would realistically lack awareness if you're suddenly being kicked awake in the middle of the night. Some DMs would ask players to spend their action on "active Perception" or they would have to take their action "blind" (as in before the DM reveals the nature of the threat).

If your answer isn't "yes", then my answer is "we're both playing 5E but in entirely different ways".

I've answered yes to both of your questions... and nothing in what I stated in my early post stops this from happening. What it does do is present significant risk for those on watch since you would have to patrol or scout ahead at a distance that leaves you vulnerable to being cut off from your party. It also probably means one person shouldn't be responsible for keeping everyone safe when they sleep... or scouting ahead for ambushes. it creates a risk vs. reward quandry where you must decide if the chance of those characters being attacked and possible cut off is worth avoiding that surprise round of attacks.

As I said, when I'm myself a player I abhor the notion that monsters just jump out of the shadows at my throat from nowhere. It might make for a good game, but to me it just feels so videogamey and artificial.

So when I DM I try to avoid imposing that on my players.

Or rather, I want a good reason if and when it happens. One such good reason is if the math tells me such a resolution is statistically plausible.

Again how are you handling light and vision? You totally skipped over that section of my post and I think this is a big part of it. Is it EVER possible for someone in my games to stop an ambush from happening... yes. But the issue seems to be that easy and total nullification of ambushes seems to be way more common (to the point you claim the rules don't work... though you don't appear to be using them for aesthetic reasons) in your games than in my games. I'm not sure how darkness, vision and light is videogamey... have you ever been in the woods or a cave at night? It really is that dark and light sources don't help that much not sure how that's videogamey. I follow the vision rules, the surprise rules, etc. and I don't have your issues. Exactly how are you running this type of encounter.