D&D 5E 5E skills and the Perception vs Stealth imbalance

[Tony Vargas]

The fact is, sneaking (Stealth) and detection (Perception) aren't born equal.

A +6, say, to Perception helps the party much more than a +6 to Stealth helps the monsters.

This means that 5E's idea to drop racial bonuses to stealth and not even grant most monsters proficiency does. not. work.

If five monsters sneak up on five adventurers, the math makes it exceedingly unlikely all five monsters will beat the best passive perception score in the group, and thus pull off an ambush.

This needs to change.

I was under the impression it already had (or, at least, could, at the DM's option). The DM can decide to check monsters' stealth vs PC passive perception, or roll a group check for the monsters against the highest (or average) PC passive perception (or some other DC he sets) or simply narrate that the party is surprised by the ambush.

 

[CapnZapp]

That's not how it works however. Suprise is determined individually. All 5 just have to beat the LOWEST score for someone to be surprised, not the highest.

Edit: Let me clarify: I mean that a successful ambush is not required to have EVERYONE surprised to be considered an ambush. Even just someone sneaking in is a successful ambush in my book.

But now you're assuming the monsters even get in position, where the rolls are made only to determine who goes when and who is surprised.

The same set of rolls are made to determine what happens in the time just before, when the monsters try to sneak up on the heroes - you get a completely different result if even one hero notices just a single monster.

The only way you can even get to where you assume we are is if EVERY monster beats every hero's score. That simply doesn't happen with 5E's way of doing things.

 

[CapnZapp]

I like that it's basically impossible to launch a surprise attack. Then nobody even tries bothering with it and then we save hours of discussions on how the PCs approach each battle.

Okay. I want something different.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well surprise doesn't work like this... Anyone who doesn't notice the monsters is surprised.



Why? IMO it works pretty well for creating situations where the most aware PC's aren't taken off guard but those with a lower Perception can be.



They can't...



It already does



How frequently should an entire party of adventurers get ambushed... let's say per level?



But they don't short circuit anything...



You mean with abilities like... false appearance... ethereal jaunt...shadow stealth... and so on, right?

EDIT: Are you sure you are using the surprise rules correctly?

To me, you and I are playing completely different games.

When you say "Anyone who doesn't notice the monsters is surprised" I can only assume you're only rolling right there and then when the surprise round (as it were) is about to go down.

But if even one monster fails to beat the best character's score the rounds before, when they try to sneak up to the characters; or hide in their ambush spot, the whole ambush gets ruined.

I mean I hope you'll agree that one character will sound the alarm as soon as he or she notices something, right?

So at this stage I can only assume you and I are talking about different things.

 

[CapnZapp]

I cover it situationally. If the the Monsters are aware of the PCs approach they would get Advantage in Stealth in setting an Ambush.

As a houserule suggestion, it isn't bad.

In this thread, however, I wanted to discuss something more... definite.

If it's dark and outside of a lit area (remember, Darkvision provides DIM LIGHT unless lit by a light source) then the PCs would get Disadvantage to their Passive Perception (so -5).

I remember.

Still, five monsters with Stealth +3 will never sneak up on a party with a Monk or Cleric or somesuch, since they all need to beat DC 11 or so.

Besides, Perception is described to cover sound and smell as well. It isn't exactly clearcut that the "move silently" part of Stealth (as opposed to the "hide") should be penalized. (That the Perception score of opposing that action should be penalized, I mean)

 

[CapnZapp]

But generally speaking, I think it's OK that a single PC with proficiency in Perception can have a big effect on saving the party from ambushes.

I can't say I agree. It is too easy (too cheap) to pick Perception.

Any reasonably efficiency-minded group of players will never create a party without at least one "spotter". It's just too much of a lifesaver.

The end result is that I will never experience the game where animals and monsters and darkness is frightening, a very strange experience.

And there are other ways for monsters to get stealth bonuses, such as darkness, cover, and lying in wait for traveling PCs.

I miss environmental factors.

With 5E, the circumstances doesn't matter any more once you've got Disadvantage already. Things can never become any more difficult than that.

 

[CapnZapp]

or simply narrate that the party is surprised by the ambush.

Well, obviously I'm one of those DMs that aren't content with having rules you need to ignore for things to make sense

Doesn't mean it's a bad approach. What it means you're way less sensitive to "sloppy" rules than I.

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem is, of course, that five monsters each rolling for Stealth, means that a couple will roll <10, and thus be detected by the passive Perception of a PC.

I think racial modifiers solve this neatly for animals or other creatures whose CR and HD doesn't merit a very high proficiency bonus, and where a very high Wisdom isn't appropriate.

Of course you could call it "Expertise", but:
1) "double proficiency" would only add +2 or +3 for the vast majority of critters this is about
2) I am not sure what would be gained by suggesting these critters are Rogues, that somehow isn't more directly adressed by using the concept of racial skill modifiers.

I guess we could create a feat called Natural Sneak that grants, say, a +5 modifier to your Stealth checks, but... *shrug*

I kind of understand that since feats are optional this can't work universally.

Besides, again, not sure what would be gained by having only one level of "racial sneakery" when two is better. I mean, it's still a very simple concept to grasp and use.

 

[ThePolarBear]

Before starting: Zapp could you please use the multiquote function? Of 18 (well, 19 with mine) posts of this thread, half of them are yours and many have with no rime or reason to be stand alone. To me this is borderline unreadable. I know there's no rule against multiposting and i'm no mod. I'm just asking this as a favour, no more no less. Ty.

But now you're assuming the monsters even get in position, where the rolls are made only to determine who goes when and who is surprised.

The same set of rolls are made to determine what happens in the time just before, when the monsters try to sneak up on the heroes - you get a completely different result if even one hero notices just a single monster.

The only way you can even get to where you assume we are is if EVERY monster beats every hero's score. That simply doesn't happen with 5E's way of doing things.

The roll for Dex(Stealth) is assumed to be only one. The thing that changes is DM ruling on range of detection for the encounter. I'm not assuming anything here if not the DM doing his job: running an encounter fairly inside the parameters of said encounter. If it's an ambush it has to be structured so that an ambush is possible: Limited visibility, lots of cover, smells, tracks, loud sound in the background, a bait to distract the pray... things like that. Such a way that is reasonable for a DM to say that the PC had no way to perceive the enemies before the intended range. Some PC might be surprised, some might not be.

In short: DM has the power to construct events. Build them accordingly to wishes. Ambushes are not things that should happen all the time.

 

[Krachek]

Large group of Monsters should do only one roll, and sometime take 10.
Use average stealth bonus if different bonus are present.
You can't roll individually 20 goblins. You assume them as a stealth team making one check.