D&D 5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Maybe because I am searching with DuckDuckGo as default rather than Google
If you do the search without quotes, it leads very quickly to "Ka the Preserver." But it wasn't 100% clear to me that "Ka the Preserver," which is a pretty generic-sounding title, HAD to be "Ka the Immortal Dinosaur," especially since the first images I saw indicated that "Ka the Preserver" looked like a feathered serpent, not a dinosaur.

It turns out that, much as Hesperus is Phosphorus, "Ka the Preserver" is "Ka the Immortal Dinosaur." You just have to dig deeper, because the latter is a colloquial name not frequently used online, whereas "Ka the Preserver" is the official, canonical name.
 

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E-1000

Explorer
I'm really baffled/amazed about how and why this thread got resurrected! 10 years later! Was someone googling "slay the Lady of Pain" or what? Or was someone tracking down all my ancient posts for some arcane reason unknown to humankind-at-large? Oh well, in any case, I don't mind discussing this ancient topic.
Hi, that was my fault. In my never ending crusade to find more and more high powered d&d stuff I stumbled across this thread and decided to add my opinion on it. After that people just started posting.
 




3e also had a Deities & Demigods that provided stats for gods that could be fought and killed. However, I never played that edition and I may be missing something. As far as I can tell this are the actual god stats not avatars.
You are indeed missing something.

The whole book is an "DM's Option" book, essentially, full of choices (and hilariously dumb statblocks which just express everything that was messed-up about 3E). The book has a section at the end about whether gods can die, and it really notes the problems with letting them die, and notes that them not (normally - i.e. outside of a Time of Troubles-type situation) being able to die makes a lot more sense. On top of that the statblocks for any kind of "serious" god are so insane (and their immunities so complete, and spellcasting abilities so vast), that literally only cheats or maybe other gods could kill them (even in the statblock sense - even other gods would have to "chip damage" them down over dozens of rounds, it would be a monumentally boring fight). PCs never could without extensive cheating/Monty Haul'ing/kobold railguns etc.
4e provided stats for several gods. The even gave descriptions on what was need to actually kill a god (more than just a statblock). There was even an adventure path that ended with killing Tiamat in her lair (with options to make a permanent death or not). All the gods stats also had lesser avatar versions called "Aspects."
Where are these "stats for several gods" in 4E? I'm looking through my 4E books and I'm seeing nothing but Tiamat. Though at least you're saying they couldn't just be killed with the statblock.
It seems clear that lesser gods can attacked and possibly killed by mortals.
No? "Encountered" doesn't mean "can be killed". It never has. That's a deeply anti-logical interpretation.

Also, we can see even from that definition, some extreme inconsistencies, like Lolth being listed as a "Lesser" god (3E for example has her as intermediate, basically greater under that definition, which makes sense given her vast number of worshippers).

It's just part of the whole creepy "back to 1E vibes" bollocks that early 5E (and the appallingly-written and underbaked DMG) had, the same ones that gave us the wildly racist take on Orcs or Vistani. See how the "enemy" races have gods that are "lesser" (uh oh) no matter how numerous and powerful those enemies are (Lolth being a prime example).
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Lady of Pain
HP: 42069 (2052d20+20520)
AC: 9001
Immunity: critical hits, all conditions
Resistance: damage from non-magical weapons, damage from magical weapons, damage from spells
Features: The Lady of Pain has advantage on all saving throws so long as she remains within Sigil

Attacks: Maze (DC 9001, target is transported to an extradimensional prison space), vicious blades (attack bonus +25, critical hit on 18-20, deals 10d10 true damage [not subject to resistance or immunity])

Good luck, have fun.
 

dave2008

Legend
You are indeed missing something.

The whole book is an "DM's Option" book, essentially, full of choices (and hilariously dumb statblocks which just express everything that was messed-up about 3E). The book has a section at the end about whether gods can die, and it really notes the problems with letting them die, and notes that them not (normally - i.e. outside of a Time of Troubles-type situation) being able to die makes a lot more sense. On top of that the statblocks for any kind of "serious" god are so insane (and their immunities so complete, and spellcasting abilities so vast), that literally only cheats or maybe other gods could kill them (even in the statblock sense - even other gods would have to "chip damage" them down over dozens of rounds, it would be a monumentally boring fight). PCs never could without extensive cheating/Monty Haul'ing/kobold railguns etc.
I will look it over, but this response looks to me like you are subconsciously admitting that gods could be killed in 3e, but you just didn't like the idea.

To be clear, I am all for giving stats to gods that are completely untouchable by mortal lvl 1-20 PCs. I am in fact doing that very thing for my ASCENSION series. IMO, stats mean it can be killed, but that doesn't mean it can be killed by PCs (or easily).
Where are these "stats for several gods" in 4E? I'm looking through my 4E books and I'm seeing nothing but Tiamat. Though at least you're saying they couldn't just be killed with the statblock.
4e had stats for at least the following gods (there could have been more). If you want I can probably DM them to you. They also provided stats for several primordials which where equal in power to the gods.

Tiamat (Draconomicon I)
Bahamut (Draconomicon II)
Lolth (Monster Manual III)
Vecna (Open Grave)
Torog (Underdark)
Maglubiyet (Dragon or Dungeon, in 4e he is an exarch of Gruumsh)
Blibdoolpoolp (Dragon or Dungeon a demigod in 4e)
Sekolah (Dragon or Dungeon, in 4e it is an exarch of Melora)

No? "Encountered" doesn't mean "can be killed". It never has. That's a deeply anti-logical interpretation.
IMO the important bits are:
  • Lesser Gods are "embodied." That implies they have a physical form that can be harmed.
  • Greater gods can manifest an avatar which is similar to a lesser deity. The avatar is similar, not the ability.
  • Slaying a greater god's avatar has no effect on it. This implies it does have an affect a lesser god.
  • The Tiamat in RoT is a god, not an avatar. And you are expected to be able to "kill"* her. There is no mention of an avatar in the adventure, it is the same stat block used in DiA, and the adventure make it pretty clear:
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No I personally like that they have walked back from this being her full power statblock, but that is what it was when it came out!

*Kill in the adventure is really banishment as she would have to be killed in her domain to truly kill her.
 
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