D&D 5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

[Hassassin]

Although I do share much of your opinion on this, I have no idea whether or not those stats have been put to use. I agree that having the pages devoted to other aspects of religion would see more use from me too. Gods are not singular bodied entities in my stories, and PCs mostly focus on taking out their minions or avatars, and not the gods themselves. But that doesn't mean I think everyone should play the game the same as I do. A book about deities is about the best place to stat them up for those who want such things.

I'm of course not opposed to printing them somewhere (where I don't have to touch them;-), but I think deity stats would have been a better fit for a book focused on epic levels. All the other crunch in F&P (prestige classes, encounters in sample temples) was for mid- to high-level non-epic characters.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Dear comrades,

It goes without saying that in D&D Next, as in all other iterations (BECMI, First Edtition, Second Edition, Third Edition, and Fourth Edition) the gods/deities/immortals will have stats.

The OP is advocating the same for Overdeities.

I'm not voicing this just because I love crunch for crunch sake, but because D&D ought to be the one venue where we don't have to bow and scrape to the Powers That Be.

In D&D, our heroes ought to be able to rise directly through the Epic levels, then through the Deity-level play, and then Overdeity cosmology-creation play.

 

[jonesy]

I'm not voicing this just because I love crunch for crunch sake, but because D&D ought to be the one venue where we don't have to bow and scrape to the Powers That Be.

Have you ever played Unknown Armies? I think you would quite like it.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Trying to kill the Lady of Pain? This looks like a job for [MENTION=2020]Edena_of_Neith[/MENTION].

 

[Quickleaf]

This means that if you let us borrow that gem, we'll give you a full share of the loot. You can have one-fourth of Sigil.

Oh, that's all right, I'd settle for a limited wish to help with my weight loss.

Then, once I'm back in fighting shape, look out.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I'm pretty sure the gods didn't have stats in 2nd edition - certainly they didn't in Planescape, where the closest you could get to meeting a god was his proxy.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I'm pretty sure the gods didn't have stats in 2nd edition - certainly they didn't in Planescape, where the closest you could get to meeting a god was his proxy.

I guess you're right--the intro to 2nd Edition Legends & Lore says:

"The reader will note that there are no statistics for the powers and abilities of true gods listed anywhere in this book. This is because the power of the gods is such that it is impossible to quantify it. Statistics quite simply become meaningless when dealing with the gods."

(There's a downloadable RTF file from WotC here.)

Having said they have no stats, the text continues by listing specific rules-based Divine Abilities of the actual gods. So, it gives vague "half-*ssed" stats for the true gods.

Then, for the rest of the book, it gives more or less the same stats as the 1e Deities & Demigods, and just calls those Avatars.

This 2e view of "unthinkably all-powerful, imperceivable" deities is a very particular perspective. 2e did several things that were a sharp break from First Edition and BECMI D&D. Some of it was a kind of "political correctness" or "rationalization".

I imagine the 2e designers thought..."it's dumb that Gygax and the Old Guard made a whole book of stats of deities for PCs to fight--that's not scientific or rational, since gods are supposed to be all-powerful and unknowable. So, we're going to make it more logical--in 2e, we'll say the gods are undescribably unstattable, but then we'll say that what 1e statted as gods, are really just avatars. The players--unheroic fanboys that they are--will never be able to fight the actual gods."

2e L&L calls us D&D heroes "ants" and declares:

"If a man is foolish enough to irritate a god, he will almost certainly be noticed — and then quickly crushed by the deity’s supernatural finger."

Many people grew up on 2e and Planescape, and so are used to that perspective. But others of us grew up on BECMI D&D and First Edition--so we're used to viewing gods as simply high level characters with a lot of special abilities. It's a pity the later generations think we're unrealistic and macho for beating on the gods.

 

[Savage Wombat]

It depends on what the gods ARE in your game.

If you have a passel of gods responsible for creating the world and it's peoples, for weaving the magic out of pure chaos, it's hard to believe that you could kill one by getting really good at swinging an axe.

If the gods in your campaign are just really high level dudes, then by all means kill them. But in that context, I feel BECMI called them "Immortals" instead of "Gods" for a reason other than political correctness.

 

[jonesy]

You keep bringing up BECMI, so I decided to go back and check what the rules actually say about the god persons.

Basic:

You may choose to add flavor to your games by adding mythological deities. The characters would be followers of such beings, and a cleric could serve a specific deity. However, all such activities are assumed, and should not influence play or change the rules in any way. No deity would react to the actions of any individual character, nor offer any special help.
The deities of the game characters may be similar to the mythological gods and goddesses of days long past. The ancient Greeks, for example, worshipped many gods - Zeus, Apollo, Poseidon, and so forth. According to legend, these gods would grant favors to their worshippers, and that is one way to explain the magic spells a cleric character can cast in the game.
The DM should be careful not to needlessly offend players, and current beliefs should be avoided.

And that's it. I find it interesting that it doesn't actually say that you get your spells from the gods by default. The excerpt is from the DM's guide and only talks about possibilities for his game world.

Expert:
Nothing. The only reference to gods is in The Isle of Dread, and only by way of name dropping one of them (Oloron, Lord of the Skies). Oh, and there's the whole fake god thing.

Companion:
Here is where Immortals first pop up. The very beginning of the players companion hints at future rules for seeking Immortality in the upcoming Master rules. And has this snippet:

Paths to Immortality. These paths will be explained in detail in the D&D Master Set, but you should know some general details at this time, so you can plan your character’s future.
After reaching level 26 or greater, a character can gain Immortality by following one of four paths:

A dynast is a character who builds a great and powerful empire. The dynasty must be vast, and must stand for a long time.

A hero (or Epic Hero) is a character who represents the ultimate ideals of heroism. The character must display the traits of the classic Epic Hero in every thought and action. Among other things, the character must travel to far lands and perform great and noble deeds.

A paragon is a character who reaches the ultimate in his or her profession. The paragon must invent or discover new skills and knowledge, and must be reknowned as a master professional.

A polymath is a character who learns much about everything, not only in the original profession, but in all areas. The character must give up all known skills before gaining others, and becoming a member of a mysterious and unique brotherhood.

Then there's the spell Contact Outer Plane, which allows you to talk to one (played by the DM, which for some reason the spell makes sure to point out). There's also the spell Gate, which can let you reach the home plane of an Immortal, but only if you know his name.

And then there's this interesting part of the Aging rules:

A person who has lived a long, exciting and fruitful life will probably accept, or even welcome, the final rest brought by death. The true Immortals, those powerful residents of the Outer Planes, would be aware of (and certainly resent) any character attempting to prolong mortal life to any excessive span. Ultimately, they would act, ensuring that the final fate of mortals remains, as always, death.

So from here it looks like the Immortals don't much want more of them around. (The Immortal rules of course clarify this a bit: they can't reproduce, so the only way for their numbers to increase is for mortals to ascend. But t they still want only the best mortals.)

Master:
The players handbook has nothing on the subject.

The DM's guide on the other hand has an extensive section on Immortals. Some choice snippets:

The Prime Plane holds special interest for Immortals. It is the only place that borders on all the other planes of existence through its position at the heart of the astral and ethereal networks. As such, it is a gateway to all the planes of existence and is the only place where all the elements and powers are equally represented.
Thus, many Immortals pass through the Prime Plane, since it is the link between the home planes of the powers and the highly contested outer planes where powers are in a constant state of flux. The Prime Plane is treated as neutral territory for all powers because of its importance as an access to all other planes. If one of the spheres should try to invade the Prime Plane, all the other spheres would band together to suppress the attack. Mortals on the Prime Plane may only be dealt with indirectly and through subversion. Immortals may not commonly confront mortals directly.

So, most of the Immortals dealings with the Prime would only be indirect, through Master level characters. Immortals own personal actions should focus on the Outer Planes, on Immortal level stuff. Makes sense.

Since all Immortals were once mortal, the DM may permit characters to seek immortality by taking the winding journey into heroic legend. Immortality is not easily gained, and most setting out on the path never succeed. But, for the truly persistent and heroic character, immortality may be attainable if he proves worthy enough. However, if immortality is gained, it is likely that the character will retire from the realm of the living and never be heard of again. Immortality must be won. It can only be earned by successfully completing several extremely difficult tasks.

All of the Immortals were once mortal. Right there in the rules.

The tasks needed to be done to become one:

Dynast: The character must found a dynasty. The dynasty must be ruled by the character and his or her descendants for at least 20 years of the character’s life. At the end of this time, the character must have a living grandchild to inherit the dynasty. This grandchild may be adopted instead of a blood relative but must be announced as the heir. During the 20 years, the character should face at least four major challenges to his rule of the land.

Epic Hero: The Epic Hero must live up to the heroic ideals of courage, steadfastness, and dedication. He must complete an epic quest to perform a nearly impossible task, such as driving all dragons from the land or building a castle in the sky. This quest should take about five years to complete.

Paragon: A Paragon must be acknowledged the superior of all other magic-users within a 1,000 mile radius. He may accomplish this through magical duels or by driving all other magic-users out of his lands. The character should challenge at least eight magic-users of 25th level or greater. These magic-users may team up against the Paragon.

Polymath: Quest and Task: The Polymath must face the challenge to succeed in three additional lives as cleric, thief, and magic-user. The Polymath, during each of his three lives as another character class, must quest for and gain the same artifact. He begins each new career at first level, with no memories of his previous lives. The quests may not begin until the character reaches 5th level in each class. The first two times the artifact is gained, the Immortal reappears to the character within 10-200 days to claim it. The Immortal then reduces the character to first level and causes him to forget his past so that he may begin as the next character class. The third time the artifact is gained, the character may retain it, and the Immortal returns all past memories.

Now, these are just the Master level tasks. Way way before reaching the Immortal rules stuff. But not easy things at all. Immortality must be earned through hardship. So I wouldn't say Immortal are simply high-level characters. It takes a hell of a lot to get there, unless you already start from a certain level. And many of the things required to get just this high involves rolling dice on tables to see whether your character can even try to begin the journey to immortality. There's a very big chance that the rules won't even allow you to start. And unless you as a player have read the Master DM rules you won't even be sure you're doing the right things.


But then we get to Immortal rules. The DM guide has this near the start:

Coming from a place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the first Immortals found the multiverse; they did not create it. They found it without order, and without purpose, so they made the achievement of these things their highest goal. The many planes of existence are still being explored by the Immortals. The Outer Planes seem to be innumerable. With each passing millenium, the Immortals grow ever more awed by the apparently infinite size and variety of this vast creation.
Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones—beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean.
The Immortals are correct. With such power, the Old Ones knew that the Immortals would come. They saw this as an opportunity. For despite their unimaginable abilities, the Old Ones are tragically similar to Immortals in one respect. They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals.

The ultimate goals in BECMI aren't about destruction or defeating anything. They are about shaping the universe, and about becoming the ultimate creators.

 

[jonesy]

It should also be added that if you side with Entropy you become an NPC.

Interestingly Entropy is treated as the Shadows are in Babylon 5. They represent neutrality, and not necessarily destruction. Survival of the fittest stuff.