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Lol, but it's there! The Mephits are each of them combinations of each element. A Dust Mephit is Earth and Air. Opposites, but still coexisting. Steam is not air, it's what happens when water gets so hot it basically ignites, except it doesn't ignite, it transforms into steam.
So you can impose your own system of opposite elements canceling each other out, but it's your own Homebrew. Two opposite things don't necessitate cancelation of each. SOMETHING happens when they hit each other. Hell, even Matter and Antimatter create something when they come into contact. A frick load of energy. They don't just negate each other and disappear without first making sure everyone knows they touched first.
When fire hits water, one of a few things happen. If they aren't equal, either the water turns to steam and the fire rages, or the fire is doused and the water continues. If they are equal, the fire is doused and the water becomes steam, thus neither continues.
In the instance of a fireball underwater, there's obviously more water than fire, so the fire turns an appropriate amount of water into steam, then is doused.
You can have fire work differently underwater without nerfing it needlessly. A Fireball with a range of touch is, in essence, a suicide spell, when there's literally no reason other than the DM can't get his head around it that it would be that way. Shortened radius of the blast and make the area lightly obscured from the bubbles for one round. Make Burning hands have half the range. Give fire different effects, sure. But negated altogether? That's what I can't get my head wrapped around.
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So you can impose your own system of opposite elements canceling each other out, but it's your own Homebrew. Two opposite things don't necessitate cancelation of each. SOMETHING happens when they hit each other. Hell, even Matter and Antimatter create something when they come into contact. A frick load of energy. They don't just negate each other and disappear without first making sure everyone knows they touched first.
When fire hits water, one of a few things happen. If they aren't equal, either the water turns to steam and the fire rages, or the fire is doused and the water continues. If they are equal, the fire is doused and the water becomes steam, thus neither continues.
In the instance of a fireball underwater, there's obviously more water than fire, so the fire turns an appropriate amount of water into steam, then is doused.
You can have fire work differently underwater without nerfing it needlessly. A Fireball with a range of touch is, in essence, a suicide spell, when there's literally no reason other than the DM can't get his head around it that it would be that way. Shortened radius of the blast and make the area lightly obscured from the bubbles for one round. Make Burning hands have half the range. Give fire different effects, sure. But negated altogether? That's what I can't get my head wrapped around.
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S
Sunseeker
Guest
Could be. This all stems from an older campaign of mine where misuse of magic had broken down the barriers between the Material Plane(t) and the Elemental Planes, and part of that was several breaches into the Elemental Plane of Water, which naturally on a planet with finite space would result in rising water levels. Being a plane of magical elemental water it could have "mutated" the land races in to more sea-adapted versions.
Hmmm, perhaps we have an issue of communication here as I have a strong dislike for Aquatic Elves as well. When I say "fishy variants" I mean that this:
is more what I would consider a "sea elf" than this:
Yaarel
He-Mage
[MENTION=6855204]tglassy[/MENTION],
If you are saying, a ‘steam’ memphit is simultaneously magical elemental ‘fire’ and magical elemental ‘water’, then Fireball spell is nonfunctional, because it is only magical fire and lacks the necessary magical water.
There would need to be a special spell that wielded two kinds of elements simultaneously, similar to spells that deal both radiant and fire damage, and so on.
If you are saying, a ‘steam’ memphit is simultaneously magical elemental ‘fire’ and magical elemental ‘water’, then Fireball spell is nonfunctional, because it is only magical fire and lacks the necessary magical water.
There would need to be a special spell that wielded two kinds of elements simultaneously, similar to spells that deal both radiant and fire damage, and so on.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
[MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] & [MENTION=6855204]tglassy[/MENTION] The fact that 3 of the 4 pages of this thread are on if a fireball would work at all, and if it would be boiling water, steam or something else, is exactly why I'm leaning in favor of just saying "It doesn't work." Because my players are smart enough to engage in your very argument and I don't need that.
But it sounds like I have my answer either way, if I want to avoid the argument I just need to pick one of two extremes of "It's magic, it works as written." or "The DM doesn't want to deal with physics." I'll probably go with the latter, but leave the spells available, since they would be perfectly functional above water. Electricity of course works in close range as demonstrated by some IRL sea-creatures....but the players might want to earn an Electrical Immunity boon first... Which, thinking about it, would motivate them to go on quests so they could use all the spells they like!
But it sounds like I have my answer either way, if I want to avoid the argument I just need to pick one of two extremes of "It's magic, it works as written." or "The DM doesn't want to deal with physics." I'll probably go with the latter, but leave the spells available, since they would be perfectly functional above water. Electricity of course works in close range as demonstrated by some IRL sea-creatures....but the players might want to earn an Electrical Immunity boon first... Which, thinking about it, would motivate them to go on quests so they could use all the spells they like!
S
Sunseeker
Guest
Missed this post, but yeah that's about the direction I'm heading. I intend to treat land for them as water is treated now, though I'll probably give them 5ft movement to crawl back to water. Probably let them breathe above water similar to the downing rules, you get 1+ConMod minutes, then the "hold breath" rules kick and you need to get back in the water. Mer-creatures aren't people, but they aren't quite fish either. I think it's a fair imitation of the literature to give them a limited amount of time above water.
Just keep in mind that there is a high number of damage dealing spells that are fire-based, and if you say "these don't work", that reduces the amount of damage-dealing spells your spellcasters will be able to use. If you're ok with that, that's great, but if not, you'll have to replace them.
Other damage types that might be affected-
Radiant: I mean, it's light, right? So will water diffuse it in some way?
Cold: Will a cold spell freeze water? Could a ray of frost even travel underwater?
Poison: Would Poison Spray be diluted underwater?
Acid: Or Acid Arrow?
Thunder: Water is a better conductor of sound than air, so would that affect spells like Thunderwave?
The rules already say that creatures fully submerged in water have resistance to fire damage, so it's up to you if you feel the need to bring something approaching physics into the game, but it would be a lot easier to say "magic functions despite, not because of, physical laws".
I once had a DM who kept getting caught up on the science of how things should work, and pretty soon we were having to deal with convection and the "crushing depths of the sea floor", among other things.
Amusingly, while he insisted on bringing these factors into the game, he was really resistant every time we used the same logic...which led to more arguments, I think, than you'd get by saying "it's magic, it has it's own rules".
Other damage types that might be affected-
Radiant: I mean, it's light, right? So will water diffuse it in some way?
Cold: Will a cold spell freeze water? Could a ray of frost even travel underwater?
Poison: Would Poison Spray be diluted underwater?
Acid: Or Acid Arrow?
Thunder: Water is a better conductor of sound than air, so would that affect spells like Thunderwave?
The rules already say that creatures fully submerged in water have resistance to fire damage, so it's up to you if you feel the need to bring something approaching physics into the game, but it would be a lot easier to say "magic functions despite, not because of, physical laws".
I once had a DM who kept getting caught up on the science of how things should work, and pretty soon we were having to deal with convection and the "crushing depths of the sea floor", among other things.
Amusingly, while he insisted on bringing these factors into the game, he was really resistant every time we used the same logic...which led to more arguments, I think, than you'd get by saying "it's magic, it has it's own rules".
CapnZapp
Legend
This is intentional. Most players can't be bothered to learn a new set of rules just for the odd underwater encounter.
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