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D&D 5E 5e Warlord Demand Poll

How much demand is there for a dedicated warlord class??

  • I am a player/DM of 5e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 61 26.3%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with WotC's current offerings for a warlord-esque class

    Votes: 67 28.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with the current 3rd party offerings for a warlord class

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 94 40.5%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Poll closed .
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Aldarc

Legend
I guess I was just thinking that sometimes the approach (spamming the boards) as opposed to the actual thing (warlord) can cause people to react in a negative way as well.
It unquestionably does cause people to react in a negative way, but that is true regardless of your stance on the Warlord. I also find it personally draining and I ardently support the development of a WotC-published Warlord class in 5e, and I have seen other pro-Warlord fans express similar sentiments. Not every single warlord thread that gets cited being on the front page of this subforum were started by pro-warlord fans or had the most positive of intentions.

I think I've grown more negative towards a warlord class (as opposed to not caring) mainly because of the annoying amount of board space it takes up as well as some of my interactions with the pro-warlord contingent. IJS.
Funny how that happens. I have grown more positive towards a warlord class as a result of my interactions with the anti-warlord contingent.
 

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mellored

Legend
What does this have to do with their being an excessive number of warlord threads concentrated in a small timeframe on the forums?
You started this thread, not me.
So you tell me why?

Anyway... I disagree, I've seen everything from questioning why this homebrew sorcerer is needed, to some telling them how to accomplish it with options already available and also stating why WotC doesn't need to publish an official version of this particular sorcerer type. You must be reading totally different threads than I am...
I don't see your 'how much demand is there for a ranger remake" thread. Or your "how much demand is there for the sorcerer" thread.

I do see you making a warlord thread and complain about how many warlord threads there are.

So pretty much like every thread on the board... both sides giving "excuses" to justify their opinion. but I see you keep trying to focus on this specific thread as opposed to having a general discussion around the multitiude of warlord threads... not sure why since that isn't what I am talking about.
Did you want me to start yet another thread to complain about the number of warlord threads?
No, I think we have enough warlord threads.

Or they could be pro-warlord fans posting the exact same thread about the same warlord stuff with different names... if this isn't spamming then what is it?
Yes.
That's 1 unnecessary warlord thread.


You want to know why I started this thread... read the OP.
Then perhaps we should talk about that.

Your poll shows that half the players want a warlord.
And half the fans think the current offerings are enough, and half don't.

So 25-50% of players would enjoy a new warlord class. Even accounting for self selection (say... 12% - 25%), that's a significant chunk of players. Easily worth the time for WotC to implement.
Though after the psion and artifier.
 

Imaro

Legend
Not every single warlord thread that gets cited being on the front page of this subforum were started by pro-warlord fans or had the most positive of intentions.

Never claimed they were or did... but then the same thing could be said for any other class.

Funny how that happens. I have grown more positive towards a warlord class as a result of my interactions with the anti-warlord contingent.

Yeah to each his own...
 

Imaro

Legend
You started this thread, not me.
So you tell me why?

Why...what??

I don't see your 'how much demand is there for a ranger remake" thread. Or your "how much demand is there for the sorcerer" thread.

Uhm... because I didn't make one. We already know WotC is remaking a ranger and that they are creating new sorecerer bloodline... why would I create a thread about their popularity when it's already been decided?

I do see you making a warlord thread and complain about how many warlord threads there are.

Yes...and?

Did you want me to start yet another thread to complain about the number of warlord threads?
No, I think we have enough warlord threads.

Cool we agree then.

Yes.
That's 1 unnecessary warlord thread.

Yes it is...

Then perhaps we should talk about that.

Your poll shows that half the players want a warlord.

How? There is no current warlord so those saying the options in 5e are sufficient don't want an actual warlord... They are cool with things like the BM fighter, PDK, Mastermind, Bard, etc.

And half the fans think the current offerings are enough, and half don't.

Huh? It looks more like 70-75% think the current offerings are enough... where are you getting half from?

So 25-50% of players would enjoy a new warlord class. Even accounting for self selection (say... 12% - 25%), that's a significant chunk of players. Easily worth the time for WotC to implement.
Though after the psion and artifier.

Uhm... where are you getting 50% from? Closer to 25% and with accounting for self selection... is it a significant chunk of players? Is it worth the time of WotC... especially with the other factors mentioned by Hussar. That's the real question.
 

tuxgeo

Adventurer
Regarding the question of whether WotC should spend time on creating a new warlord class:

< snip > . . . Is it worth the time of WotC... especially with the other factors mentioned by Hussar. That's the real question.

Re: "Is it worth the time of WotC..."
That is a question that only WotC can truly answer. However, this fact won't keep forum posters from trying to answer it anyway. :)
 

Imaro

Legend
Regarding the question of whether WotC should spend time on creating a new warlord class:



Re: "Is it worth the time of WotC..."
That is a question that only WotC can truly answer. However, this fact won't keep forum posters from trying to answer it anyway. :)

True but if we let a little thing like WotC being the only one who can answer stop a thread... well that would eliminate a big chunk of the discussion on this board... :D
 

mellored

Legend
Huh? It looks more like 70-75% think the current offerings are enough... where are you getting half from?
There's going to be an overlap of people who are satisfied, but will still buy/play a new warlord class.

I mean, people are happy with the wizard, but if new book of spells come out, they might still buy it.
Or if your full from dinner, but still orders desert.

(And no, I don't recommend starting another thread to separate them).

Is it worth the time of WotC... especially with the other factors mentioned by Hussar. That's the real question.
Easily.

9 pages in a 150 page book (SCAG size) would be 6% of the space, but make a minimum of 12% of the people happy (though i'd guess closer to 18%).
And there's plenty of space for artificers, mystics, and a revised ranger in the same book.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
..or ignore them...
Yeah, definitely an option. Some of those threads had some great ideas though, I liked reading through the ones working on what the mechanics of the class might look like. Problem being, pretty much all of them turn in to a few people using really wordy responses trying to pick apart their opposite's posts. It tends to be a deathknell of a thread when it reaches a point where posters are quoting and responding to each individual sentence of a post.
 

pemerton

Legend
If you view hit points as being even somewhat physical damage, there really isn't a good way to have complete healing that isn't magical. You might be able to say that someone uses a healing kit to patch them up enough that the wounds aren't impairing, but that's a lot different from yelling encouraging words from across the battlefield.
I feel that the last claim (on the right-hand side of the 'but") needs more development. Ie, why is "patching someone up" different from yelling encouraging words?

The game already allows that someone can push on at full physical performance despite hit point loss, all the way down to 1 hp remaining. So, to the extent that hp model or express in some fashion the occurrence of physical injury or wounding, the game already takes it for granted that such damage doesn't impede performance.

When a warlord "heals" ie restores hp (and I think the technical elucidation of the term "healing" matters here), one need not take it that any physical injury is going away. It is simply continuing not to impede the "healed" person.

I can see the in-principle concern about absurd outcomes eg a warlord keeps "healing" and "healing" so that the physical injury a character is ignoring becomes of Monty Python Black Knight proportions. In 4e this concern was blocked via the Healing Surge mechanic. I'm not sure how one would best handle it in 5e - spending hit dice is one possibility, but (given other features of 5e) seems rather punitive as a mode of healing (whereas in 4e nearly all healing uses surges).

If the Warlord granted temporary hit points or could only heal up to half (or only the top half, though that sounds punitive) or had some other something, that would be a bit better.
I think limiting to healing half, or the top half, doesn't really meet the concern. It gives rise to a picture of human action in the gameworld where people can push on despite their (lower half) wounds, but inspiration at that point is of no help to them in doing so - but that looks like a rather arbitrary model of inspiration.

Temp hp are an issue for other reasons. First, in general I think they're a clunky mechanic: I dislike the Unearthed Arcana Aid spell, which I think is their first occurrence in AD&D, and I dislike them in 4e, where they cause needless adjudication questions (the answer is normally straightforward enough, but I shouldn't need to ask the question in the first place). But that's probably just idiosyncratic to me. Second, to the extent that they model something, it is being roused before battle "St Crispin's Day"-style; not being encouraged to go on despite the rigours of the actual conflict.

In 5E, if you're OK with a Warlord who has that pseudo-magical ability to heal and motivate others, then I don't see why a Valor Bard wouldn't work. So what if a lot of the abilities are called "spells"? 5E has (rightly, IMO) gotten rid of the distinctions between divine magic, arcane magic, etc. It's up to the group to decide whether the Bard or Ranger are tapping divine sources, calling on nature spirits, or got their abilities through study. I would have liked to see them step back a bit from the "mystic sounds" of the verbal components, though.

<snip>

Adding a new class and framework could work, too, but seems like extreme overkill because you'd either end up with something that was just a spell list by another name or otherwise redundant with something else existing (Maneuvers, feats, etc.).
Given how many classes in 5e use spells, I don't think there's per se a problem in having another class that double-dips into the Manoeuvre or Inspiration Dice design space.

My dislike of doing it as spells - via bard, paladin, etc - is that it's very hard to get rid of the idea of a spell as a rather discrete magical ritual that draws upon some external power source (eg The Weave, per the sidebar in the Basic PDF).

If you want truly and explicitly non-magical healing, and are not happy with existing constructs (not saying you should be), then I think it would make sense to either expand additional options or create a whole new framework. The former could include some new Maneuvers for the Battle Master that added healing

<snip>

I guess I just don't see the case for a completely new class. I can see the argument that the Battle Master should be given the Ranger treatment, and I wouldn't be opposed to that -- I'm just not invested in it. I oppose a new class because I think there's an upper limit on the number of top-level classes the game can handle before the system shifts from "accessible but rich in capability" to "complex and full featured, but not accessible". D&D works best when it's accessible with support for moderate complexity.
I've got no strong view either way on what is "too many" classes.

I think my doubts about doing it via Battle Master is a bit more low-level - balance wise, the BM is so invested in doing damage via 4 attacks, using Manoeuvre dice to add damage, etc, that it's not clear that it really has the space to include a rich suite of warlord-y options. I think the paladin is probably a more suitable starting chassis (although it also has some "balance by way of damage dealing" issues), but somehow getting in something manoeuvre-y in lieu of spells (some sort of Eldritch Knight to BM equivalence postulate would have to be the starting point for the design). I don't think the Valour Bard provides a good chassis, because using manoeuvres as a substitute for full casting just seems hopeless.
 

The Old Crow

Explorer
Temp hp are an issue for other reasons. First, in general I think they're a clunky mechanic: I dislike the Unearthed Arcana Aid spell, which I think is their first occurrence in AD&D, and I dislike them in 4e, where they cause needless adjudication questions (the answer is normally straightforward enough, but I shouldn't need to ask the question in the first place). But that's probably just idiosyncratic to me. Second, to the extent that they model something, it is being roused before battle "St Crispin's Day"-style; not being encouraged to go on despite the rigours of the actual conflict.

What if the Warlord class' encouragement could inspire damage resistance instead? Their allies could take 1/2 damage the next time they took damage, for example, and maybe for more hits at higher level.

Sure, it won't help the raging Barbarian, but was he really listening anyway?
 

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