D&D General March Madness 2024 - Round 2 - Martials

[Mind of tempest]

So would this mean that a Druid is really an Animist Cleric?

no druid is a subclass of the animist intercessor it sacrifices some generic resource for being able to turn into a bear or something.

 

[Yaarel]

So would this mean that a Druid is really an Animist Cleric?

Druid can go both ways too.
• The "old faith", sotospeak, is animism with its friendships with nature beings.
• The "new faith" is polytheism, with its priests, temples, worship, and prayers.

Notably, in the case of the polytheistic Cleric the "divine power source" is actually the Astral Plane itself where the designated gods dwell. The Cleric isnt actually dependent on the gods themselves.

 

[Corinnguard]

no druid is a subclass of the animist intercessor it sacrifices some generic resource for being able to turn into a bear or something.

Hmm...I could see the Elementalist being an Animist subclass that focuses on Elementals and the Elements. I think we have the makings of a new class here.

 

[ezo]

monk is my favourite class that is in the phb it is trash but I love it.
desperately needs to be improved.

What is wrong with the monk??? I've played a couple and seen at least half-a-dozen others played and no ones ever had any complaints.

Seriously, I think the only complaint I've even read about is the lack of ki points. IMO that is because people think they should be able to spend a ki point every round, as where I feel ki should be used for the special moments where they will have more impact.

So, out of curiousity, what do you think are the monk's failings as written??

 

[Yaarel]

Hmm...I could see the Elementalist being an Animist subclass that focuses on Elementals and the Elements. I think we have the makings of a new class here.

For animism, the elementals would need to be aspects of the Material Plane. Not in some other plane somewhere else.

The aspects of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire are for the animist more like Soil, Rain, Wind, and Sunlight. Moreso actual nature, lessso (al)chemist lab. Also, these features of Soil, like mountains and fields, Rain, wellsprings, rivers, lakes, ocean, Winds, clouds, upper atmosphere, seasonal weather patterns, and Fire, sun, stars, lightning, lava, are each sentient beings.

The nature being is the literal thing itself. The actual river itself flowing water. And so on. It isnt a separate spirit that controls the river. The river is a kind of living being.

 

[Clint_L]

What is wrong with the monk??? I've played a couple and seen at least half-a-dozen others played and no ones ever had any complaints.

Seriously, I think the only complaint I've even read about is the lack of ki points. IMO that is because people think they should be able to spend a ki point every round, as where I feel ki should be used for the special moments where they will have more impact.

So, out of curiousity, what do you think are the monk's failings as written??

Because if you aren't spending ki points you're basically a weak fighter with low HP and AC. A monk without ki is like a caster without spells...except at least they always have cantrips. On top of that, the monk is not very well kitted out to perform their supposed role of light skirmisher - a rogue does it much more effectively. There's a reason monk is at the bottom of almost every tier ranking for 5e.

I'm currently playing a monk using the revised rules from the UA. It's a night vs. day improvement because you have more ki, and more stuff that you can do without ki. It actually plays like an awesome martial artist from the movies.

 

[ezo]

Because if you aren't spending ki points you're basically a weak fighter with low HP and AC. A monk without ki is like a caster without spells...except at least they always have cantrips. On top of that, the monk is not very well kitted out to perform their supposed role of light skirmisher - a rogue does it much more effectively. There's a reason monk is at the bottom of almost every tier ranking for 5e.

I'm currently playing a monk using the revised rules from the UA. It's a night vs. day improvement because you have more ki, and more stuff that you can do without ki. It actually plays like an awesome martial artist from the movies.

Yes, I remember your post about carrying your barbarian friend up a wall, making two attacks, stunning someone, etc. and how awesome you felt it was.

And IIRC I pointed out everything you did in that scenario was possible without any of the UA material (I could be mistaken, it has been a little while).

A monk without ki, especially at mid and higher levels, can be just as effective in general as a fighter. You still have unarmed strikes as a bonus action on attacking, you still have ki-empowered strikes (without spending ki), which since magical items is not a baseline for 5E, is pretty awesome. You can still run across water and up walls, you still move faster, etc. And since ki refreshes on a short rest (unlike sorcerer points, which is more of an issue IMO), getting it back isn't too difficult, especially since a lot of groups seem to do abbreviated short rests of just 5 or 10 minutes. (I don't but others certainly do.)

And sure, being ki-less is sort of like a caster without spells. But spell slots are limited, and so is ki. Because those things are meant to be used in the "cool" moments for important reasons, not just performed and used willy-nilly. Often casters resort to cantrips alone, and often monks have resorted to using all their other things without resorting to ki.

I noted in the post you replied to that the lack of ki is the only issue I commonly hear complained about, and easy house-rules can take care of that plus some of the other issues:

1. Grant bonus ki equal to Wisdom modifier.
2. Change monk HD to d10.
3. Increase unarmed damage dice by 1 step, so base d6 to start.

Other than #1, the other two might make a player "feel" better, but have little impact (avg. +1 hp per level, avg. +1 dmg) really.

 

[Clint_L]

Yes, I remember your post about carrying your barbarian friend up a wall, making two attacks, stunning someone, etc. and how awesome you felt it was.

And IIRC I pointed out everything you did in that scenario was possible without any of the UA material (I could be mistaken, it has been a little while).

Being able to carry someone while doing step of the wind is a new ability.

A monk without ki, especially at mid and higher levels, can be just as effective in general as a fighter. You still have unarmed strikes as a bonus action on attacking, you still have ki-empowered strikes (without spending ki), which since magical items is not a baseline for 5E, is pretty awesome.

No, you have one extra unarmed strike on top of your attack action, not as a bonus action. Having it as a bonus action is a significant improvement. Having your attacks count as magical is /shrug? Magical items may not be baseline, but I've not seen a mid-high level martial character without at least a +1 weapon, so actually they are doing better in this regard. Ki-empowered strikes is basically there to make up for the lack of magic weapons for monks, which is a lousy trade-off.

You can still run across water and up walls, you still move faster, etc. And since ki refreshes on a short rest (unlike sorcerer points, which is more of an issue IMO), getting it back isn't too difficult, especially since a lot of groups seem to do abbreviated short rests of just 5 or 10 minutes. (I don't but others certainly do.)

Currently, ki stops being a severe problem around level 7, if you have a campaign that allows for frequent short rests. That's a lot of levels to get through just so your class can start playing as advertised.

And sure, being ki-less is sort of like a caster without spells. But spell slots are limited, and so is ki. Because those things are meant to be used in the "cool" moments for important reasons, not just performed and used willy-nilly. Often casters resort to cantrips alone, and often monks have resorted to using all their other things without resorting to ki.

Except casters have cantrips. What are these "other things" that monks are to resort to?

I noted in the post you replied to that the lack of ki is the only issue I commonly hear complained about, and easy house-rules can take care of that plus some of the other issues:

1. Grant bonus ki equal to Wisdom modifier.
2. Change monk HD to d10.
3. Increase unarmed damage dice by 1 step, so base d6 to start.

Other than #1, the other two might make a player "feel" better, but have little impact (avg. +1 hp per level, avg. +1 dmg) really.

So the monk needs house rules to play like it should? Yes, that is why it is being heavily improved in the UA. That's sort of my point.

 

[ezo]

Being able to carry someone while doing step of the wind is a new ability.

Nope. Not at all. It just depends on your monk's STR and the weight of the person they are carrying. A STR 14 PC could carry over 200 lbs without impact on movement by default in 5E.

No, you have one extra unarmed strike on top of your attack action, not as a bonus action. Having it as a bonus action is a significant improvement. Having your attacks count as magical is /shrug? Magical items may not be baseline, but I've not seen a mid-high level martial character without at least a +1 weapon, so actually they are doing better in this regard. Ki-empowered strikes is basically there to make up for the lack of magic weapons for monks, which is a lousy trade-off.

I think you wrote that backwards?

You get the extra unarmed strike by using your bonus action in 5E when you attack. I'm guessing the new material lets you get the additional attack as an unarmed strike without using your bonus action??

While you might shrug at ki-empowered strikes, the fact remains that the way 5E was designed, monks are the only class IIRC which can deal magical damage without using a spell slot. (I'm sure I am forgetting something, but off-hand I can't think of anything...).

Currently, ki stops being a severe problem around level 7, if you have a campaign that allows for frequent short rests. That's a lot of levels to get through just so your class can start playing as advertised.

For you, perhaps, and I know for some others who've complained about the lack of ki (which I've already acknowledged), which is also why I've suggested bonus ki equal to your Wisdom modifier. That alone makes a significant difference.

Frankly, complaining about ki would be the same as complaining that barbarians have such limited rages (which refresh on a LONG rest), or second wind and action surge are only ONCE each between short rests at most levels, etc. Yet you rarely ever hear players complain about those.

Except casters have cantrips. What are these "other things" that monks are to resort to?

All the other stuff I already mentioned. Faster movement, bonus unarmed strike every round, the ability to fight without weapons or needing armor (two things that severely hamper every other martial!), moving over water and up walls, etc.

So the monk needs house rules to play like it should? Yes, that is why it is being heavily improved in the UA. That's sort of my point.

Not at all. I just said those are three very simple house-rules which could help those who find the monk class lacking. I'm perfectly happy with them as is, and so are most players I know of. The only issue repeatedly brought up is ki, which again I've acknowledge from the beginning.

And like I said before, in your other thread everything you did in your awesome scenario was already allowed RAW, without any houserules. The only possible issue might be the carrying the barbarian, put that depends on your monk's STR, barbarian's weight, etc.

 

[Gradine]

Rogues are typically the most fun class to play in any edition they're in, even the ones where they were called Thieves and were just mechanically bad, and the 5e Rogue is the best version of the Rogue by a country mile.