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D&D 5E 5e's stumbles

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
That right there is one of 5e's stumbles.:rant:

Yeah, I'm not 100% happy how the "stick" was handled.

The 1d4 club is fine for a truncheon, but what about a fat cudgel?

The 1d6/1d8 versatile quarterstaff to me seems to describe a "fighting walking stick" - like an actual shillelagh or a short staff like the lathi.

However it doesn't work for a long quarterstaff or classical "wizard's staff", nor does it work for large heavy club like the tsetubo...
 

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Avalongod

Explorer
Oh I should add to my ranting, the "Feat" system in 5e which is awful. The addition of feats to 3e and 4e was one of the most brilliant innovations to character customization...there were issues such as "feat taxes" and such of course, but overall it was a nice design element.

Removing the feat system to an option and one that carries heavy penalties for using really kind of ruins it. I like the idea of better if less frequent feats, and ones that weren't "feat tax" in nature. And I get they wanted 5e to be a simpler system. But making feats "second class" I think was a serious mistake.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think the way feats "cost" an ASI (ability score increase), at least until level 12, is very very good. It allows feats to be nice fat chunks of goodness without being overpowered. It also makes the "optionalness" of feats much less of a big deal, since even in a game with feats, it wouldn't be unthinkable for everyone to never select any feats anyway.

Of course there are still a couple of real clunkers, but I guess that is much more irritating in theory than a problem in practice.
 

Avalongod

Explorer
Oh I think the feats themselves are fine (other than a few clunkers as you say), but I'd rather the old 3e or 4e system of getting them as a regular course of action rather than as an option instead of +2 ability which is going to limit the degree to which people will/can take them. Also, unless human, you can't get one until level 4. I'd rather a different way of handling feats.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Totally late to this thread, so sorry if I repeat. I *like* 5e, but like most versions it has it's limitations. My main beef right now is the low number of spells per day, particularly at high levels, that casters get. I know casters had to be balanced better in this edition than in previous, but the economy of spell casting, particularly for wizards seems to have penned in spell casting a bit much.
You're failing to consider wasted and under-utilized slots. In the classic game, you had a lot of slots at very high level (though you had fewer than in 5e at low level), but you had to memorize into each and every slot exactly the spell you would cast in it. The result was that you would have some spells you cast at less than optimal effect because they were the best thing you had left in the circumstance, and some you didn't cast at all because they never came up or you were saving them. You had all these slots, but you sacrificed some of them for versatility.

In 5e, you use slots to cast spontaneously, so you always cast the best spell that you have prepared when you use a slot at all, and if you prep a spell but turn out not to need at all, you simply spend all your slots on other spells. Slots are only wasted if get a much shorter 'day' than you expected. So you need fewer slots.

Another factor is Concentration. You can't just 'layer' a bunch of buff, damage-mitigation, and mobility spells on your party ahead of a fight, and they come to be expected and 'factored in' to challenges as you level. You have to pick & choose, and the one spell you choose will see you contributing significantly to the whole battle. So, again, you need fewer slots.

Yet another consideration is that fights in 5e are relatively short (relative to classic & 4e fights, not 3e rocket tag), so you may not need as many spells to get you through each fight.

And, of course, you have non-trivial at-will cantrips to fall back on any round that you decide not to use a slot, so conserving slots is an easier decision, and your performance when not casting is at a higher baseline than if you were throwing darts or firing a crossbow or whatever.

And, all of that is relative to 3e or classic D&D, when you did - at high enough level - have more slots. At low levels, in 5e, you actually have /more/ slots than in classic D&D. And, when compared to the last edition of the game, you have far more daily slots available to casters at all levels. So the immediate trend is not 'fewer slots and better balanced,' it is far more slots, vastly increased versatility, and tenuous balance by protracted 6-8 encounter days enforced by DM Empowerment.

If you feel the caster you're playing 'doesn't have enough slots' that just means you have a good DM.


I'm also not a fan of the "short rest" mechanic which makes healing difficult and also, due to some classes relying on short rests to recuperate abilities like ki and spells (for warlocks) can make it difficult to balance those classes against classes that don't rely on short rests. Too many short rests and they become OP, too few and they are at significant disadvantage.
The same has always been true of characters with all-at-will abilities, like traditional fighters, and the number of encounters/day. 5e requires a longish - 6-8 Encounter/2-3 short-rest 'day' - to balance the classes resources against eachother (and against encounters). It's up to the DM to make that happen - or adjust encounters, introduce uncertainty, manage expectations, "apply DM force," and/or otherwise keep things in balance to the degree & in the way that's best for his campaign.
 

procproc

First Post
1) Lots or thing in LotR don't map well to D&D, Wizards especially
2) Gandalf's staff was very much his focus, either a specialty class feature or specific item
3) A staff is a two-handed weapon, so you wouldn't be able to fight with it using TWF anyway
4) Gandalf doesn't really do any casting while fighting with his sword?

Right, but the situation Spectacle points out is certainly non-intuitive and weird. That's pretty much the definition of a "stumble", IMO.

re: handedness more generally, it's mostly the uncertainty. It's clear that a caster can use a 2h weapon or a 1h weapon with nothing in the offhand. The 1h+shield caster is enough of a common use-case that they really should've had a few lines explaining how it worked, or that it didn't. I mean, that's the default behavior for half of the Cleric class; if my War cleric isn't supposed to be able to cast Bless (V,S,M) while holding a mace and a shield in combat, they should add some kind of note to that effect. And to be clear, it's mostly a "stumble" in the context of the rest of the rules, which they've cleaned up and clarified nicely.

Tony Vargas said:
But players overwhelmingly choose a class because they like the idea of the archetype, not because they want a simpler/lower agency experience. Once they obtain some system mastery or internalize some community preconceptions, that can change, of course... they start to realize that there's the character they want to play, the character that will be most effective in theory, and the one that might be the most fun to actually play, and that they're all different.

I agree that people pick classes because they like the idea of the archetype, but disagree stridently that complexity isn't a factor. I've definitely had players interested in casters who looked at the extra several hundred pages devoted to magic and spells, and decided to play a rogue or fighter -- one of the limited options, given 5e's expansion of magic to most classes.

I think it's easy to frame one's views based on one's own anecdotal evidence. The people I mostly played 2e and 3e with were, like me, geeks with an interest in D&D system mastery. Every character that got played was, to some degree, "min/maxed" -- not that everyone only played primary casters, but the characters were often an unintuitive mishmash of feats and prestige classes to squeeze out extra combat bonuses. In contrast, the people I play with nowadays are much more... casual-intensity, I guess, is a good way to put it. People often don't realize their spells (Healing Word, Shield) can be cast as bonus actions; I've seen a rogue forget that they had sneak attack, and a caster forget they'd gotten 3rd level spells; re-calculation of combat bonuses with every attack roll; and basically a lot of stuff that would've made my old group's eyes bug out.

That's not to criticize my current group, but to point out that those of us who post on internet D&D forums are probably the "1%" of game rules competence. D&D has a lot more casual appeal now than it has probably at any other point in history, and I suspect the caster complexity issue is a much larger deterrent than might be obvious at first blush.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I agree that people pick classes because they like the idea of the archetype, but disagree stridently that complexity isn't a factor. I've definitely had players interested in casters who looked at the extra several hundred pages devoted to magic and spells, and decided to play a rogue or fighter -- one of the limited options, given 5e's expansion of magic to most classes.
Oh, I'm sure it's a factor in the experience, and informs choices going forward. A player may decide they want to play a wizard because of the arechetype, have a terrible time of it, or even be so intimidated at chargen that they change their mind. A player may decide they want to play a fighter because of the archetype, quickly get bored, or even be so disappointed by what's possible at chargen that they change their mind. That's a price the game pays for using complexity to differentiate classes.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
Oh I should add to my ranting, the "Feat" system in 5e which is awful. The addition of feats to 3e and 4e was one of the most brilliant innovations to character customization...there were issues such as "feat taxes" and such of course, but overall it was a nice design element.

They seemed nice at first. But over the previous two editions, I would be hard pressed to find a design element, with the possible exception of spells, that turned out to be more prone to abuse, bloat, and outright "breaking" the game than feats. Feat taxes were only a part of it. Got an element that you can't quite fit in any other way? Make a feat out of it. Got a cool idea for squeezing every last bit of power from a class/system feature? Make a feat out of it. Saw or read something you like? Make a...you get the idea. It quickly became a nightmare.

Removing the feat system to an option and one that carries heavy penalties for using really kind of ruins it. I like the idea of better if less frequent feats, and ones that weren't "feat tax" in nature. And I get they wanted 5e to be a simpler system. But making feats "second class" I think was a serious mistake.

Making them optional, and rather elegantly I might add, was essentially the designers realizing the massive problems feats caused in previous editions, while also realizing they were now an expected part of D&D 'character customization'. The paint-by-numbers design and poor play testing of some of them (GWM, Sharp shooter, etc.) seem to bear this out.
 

Avalongod

Explorer
If you feel the caster you're playing 'doesn't have enough slots' that just means you have a good DM.

Heh, these types of replies don't feel "helpful" to me...I think you could say this about just about anything to be dismissive. Otherwise, Tony, you do raise some fair points. However, for me at least, it still feels off. I totally get what you're saying about the wasted slots issue/spontaneous casting, but at the higher level, things still feel off and stretched (whether the DM is good or not.) Granted I kind of liked the old Vancian system, and if you were good at it, you could keep wasted slots to a minimum. The addition of the at-will magic abilities/cantrips by 4e was a great addition (one of the real positive innovations of 4e IMO), I agree. But as you yourself later note, if 5e is assuming 6-8 encounters a day, that's going to stretch spellcasters tight in 5e given the limited slots. And this will be particularly true at the higher levels. I think if 5e had added one more spell in each slot from level 4 spells on I think things would have felt a bit more "right." Doesn't have to be as many per day as in 3e, but right now there are too few.

By the way, in which edition did spellcasters get fewer spells per day than they do in 5e at low levels? Looking at 3e, wizards got 4/day at low levels (before bonuses), same as now. Sorcs got 6. I could fully be missing something (and wouldn't remotely be the first time...)

The same has always been true of characters with all-at-will abilities, like traditional fighters, and the number of encounters/day. 5e requires a longish - 6-8 Encounter/2-3 short-rest 'day' - to balance the classes resources against eachother (and against encounters). It's up to the DM to make that happen - or adjust encounters, introduce uncertainty, manage expectations, "apply DM force," and/or otherwise keep things in balance to the degree & in the way that's best for his campaign.

I think that's kind of the trick though...this kind of pacing is seeming (from my experience at least) to be difficult to pace properly. In part that seems to be because the short rests are so long...an hour now. It's tough, I think, to rationalize how often you'd expect to be left alone for such lengths of time if you're on some kind of "dungeon crawl" (which would fit the 6-8 encounter thing.) And, of course, not all campaigns work on that kind of encounter schedule at all. So, for me, it feels like a clunker.
 

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