5th Edition and the Female Demographic

[Umbran]

I would think that the thing they'd most need to do to get women into the hobby would be some (unfortunatley expensive) market research. You know - ask them what they want, rather than assume.

I haven't heard any women gamers or non-gamers cite mechanical things as barriers to enjoying the hobby.

In my own experience, there's no particular thing in the mechanics, no. But, for those I've played with, the weight and general form of the mechanics are not so much a barrier as a speedbump. Not that the math is hard, or that they are incapable of comprehending, or something. They are perfectly capable of handling the rules.

But "capable of" does not imply they find it fun. And it doesn't mean those rules allow them to quickly get at what they want from the table.

Simply put, most of the women I've played with aren't in it to play a tactical wargame. This is not to say that they don't like combat, kicking butt and taking names. But they'd prefer to do it with less weight of rules, less plodding about counting squares, and whatnot, and a lot more drama and better pacing. All the mucking about with the details for rules seems to get in the way, slowing them down from getting to whatever it is they want out of the game.

And I think that's a fair critique. D&D's wargame roots are pretty darned obvious. They're great if your a player who gets their kicks specifically from rules mastery, but they're pretty cumbersome, boring, and uninteresting if that's not your bag.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I know that Green Ronin produced their "Blue Rose" roleplaying system, with simplified rules (which became the basis for true20) and with fantasy romance friendly themes.

I wonder to what extent it was successful? The Blue Rose forums at Green Ronin seem fairly moribund, and it isn't under active revision or development.

 

[chaochou]

Actually, in general, encouraging the women who currently are playing to share their experiences and produce fan and professional content for the game would help tremendously.

If I ran a games company and was aiming to attract female gamers this would be my approach. I wouldn't be trying to 'guess what women want', I'd hire more women - artists, writers, designers, playtesters, marketers - and let them tell me.

 

[Barastrondo]

Another vote for "it ain't happening unless the culture of the people around the table changes." Vampire: The Masquerade wouldn't have been nearly as successful if it had scoffed at Anne Rice's works as female-oriented. I mean, I'm not saying Twilight is good by any metric*, but the more male geeks (and female geeks) sneer at it, the fewer chances for recruitment and conversion they have.

Geeks are a tribalistic lot, quite given to "my favored fantasy/scifi/superhero works are quite awesome, yours suck." Regardless of gender, that's a barrier to recruiting more gamers -- it's just exacerbated because there are a lot of male gamers who really like to talk about how worthless stuff that's openly aimed at women is.



*I think it's very problematic, and the women I game with are no fans, but I don't expect that leading with a VAMPIRES DON'T SPARKLE war-cry is going to bring in new female gamers unless I know they're already attuned for something a little more bloody.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Back to White Wolf first Vampire game, I remember why my female friends, even one's that never even had read fantasy wanted to check out the book. It had realistic art about pretty but dangerous people with violent and erotic themes.

Those who actually got to read them liked the system because all points were explained with "funny" quotes what means when you have 1-5. The system did get little bit hard to use in actual game, but not so at beginning.

Rare are female players who like complicated formulas, vague terms and numerous referance tables. Even those who don't don't get overwhelmed by them mostly think they look like what they do at work/school.

And then there was referance to books and movies. Femeles almost always read that and most of males didn't.

Most other girls I used to game with liked art/simple starting rules. However they didn't like simplestic. There can be complex rules, character making should just not include them. Sure there are girls who are ok with current d&d etc, you know ones that are playing it.

But it's not really attractive to teens playing computer rpg/books. Partially it's negative fame thing, partially lack of fame. At least here in finland looks like most of next generation younth boys/girls equally just haven't got interested in rpg:s. Maybe because books/computer games with nice graphics are available.

Generally speaking twilight books had some rapid fans (stupid girls), and some quiet fans (guilty pleasure). Most of them, even rapid fans were dissapointed with Breaking Dawn. Well because it wasn't romantic. There was the much expected sex-scene that was all faded into black. Nasty pregnacy event. Vampire battle that never happned. Main character getting lame vampiric ability. And creepo child with stupid name and werewolf boys bit perv choosing of her as future mate (hey it was a baby).

So breaking damn broke the theme, and many rapid fans want to forget it was never written.

I think whole twilight hysteria starts to be a dead thing. Of course they are trying to leech some money about last movie by making it two parts. Saw trailer when I went to see Immoretals.

So making of Twilight the RRG woudn't be very popular and never have been, because it has such limited cast. It gets old fast.

Also writer's try at scifi "romance" was a big fail.

And because twilight is supernatural romance series and doesn't really contain that much action. Only people I know who actually play romantic games systemwise (your experience may differ) are punch of guys at anime club who are way too much into series made for young girls.

The thing is women don't like cute romance, they like dangerous romance. Look at any section of romance novels that sell well.

Some things I've noticed when I was teeny girl with other girls in my group what came to likings boys didn't so much have: Pets. Including horses, didn't want them to get killied. Not so detail oriented otherwise but:
"I want to know what my character looks like, what that npc looks like, what kinda clothes, how about jewelry etc."
Romantic subplots. But only few were after those, most liked killing stuff more.
Tendercy to try to seduce enemies. Mostly only as backstab tactic. But they liked to describe it with some detail.

I don't know any girl who likes 4th edition, not even me. And most girls/women (except me and another comic book reader) disliked 3rd edition art. What's up with all those belts, looks so hard to dress up and stupid. was common topic. Old second editon fantasy art gets best reviews.

Culture of rpg:s is issue naturally. I think creators should mingle the rpg more with other medias for it to be success. MMO angle might work. Also fiction would have to jump out of it's comfort zone and create more social interaction and some romantic plot elements. I give my sister, who plays Pathfinder btw one pathfinder book as present last year. And she complained it was boring, "and they didn't even kiss" about couple that had something apperanly going on.

But remember game you want to play, and fiction that attracts are two different things. Anna Rice books and White Wolf' Vampire game are a bood example.

Blue Rose, was lame rpg for those in my groups who were sooo into Valdemar series by Mercedes Lackey. Maybe because it tried to be cute. And Mercedes Lackey books seemed that way perhaps but they were actually very cruel and sad stories.

When you make rpg about these kinda subject books you have to be careful or it gets to be either boring and cutesy or way too depressing.

And another point. Game made to attract more gilrls should be attractive game for boys too. If you try to please the another sex, you end up pleasing neither.

 

[S'mon]

If I ran a games company and was aiming to attract female gamers this would be my approach. I wouldn't be trying to 'guess what women want', I'd hire more women - artists, writers, designers, playtesters, marketers - and let them tell me.

They'll know what *they* want. They won't know what women in general want, any more than you know what men want (assuming you're a man).

 

[S'mon]

Another vote for "it ain't happening unless the culture of the people around the table changes." Vampire: The Masquerade wouldn't have been nearly as successful if it had scoffed at Anne Rice's works as female-oriented. I mean, I'm not saying Twilight is good by any metric*, but the more male geeks (and female geeks) sneer at it, the fewer chances for recruitment and conversion they have.

Geeks are a tribalistic lot, quite given to "my favored fantasy/scifi/superhero works are quite awesome, yours suck." Regardless of gender, that's a barrier to recruiting more gamers -- it's just exacerbated because there are a lot of male gamers who really like to talk about how worthless stuff that's openly aimed at women is.

*I think it's very problematic, and the women I game with are no fans, but I don't expect that leading with a VAMPIRES DON'T SPARKLE war-cry is going to bring in new female gamers unless I know they're already attuned for something a little more bloody.

As I said upthread, in terms of marketing D&D to women & girls I think it makes far more sense to target female geeks, rather than 'normal' women & girls. 'Days of Our Lives: The RPG' or 'My Litte Pony: The RPG' are IMO non-starters, and I seem to recall similar projects failing back in the '80s.

So IMO it's fine to appeal to female geek prejudices, many of which are similar to male geek prejudices. Including a hatred of Twilight.

 

[S'mon]

Anyway, in terms of attracting female (geek) players, many of the points above are good.

Artwork - plenty of female protagonist characters, attractive is good, but go light on the cheesecake chain bikinis. I think WotC basically has it right with the 4e art direction (although the occasional pic of PCs relating to each other or talking to NPCs might not hurt). Some women like the Clyde Caldwell type cheescake art, but in general it's a turn-off IME.

Adventures & Campaigns - people to talk to, as well as people to kill. A bit more high fantasy, especially the Realmsian type stuff, a bit less swords & sorcery.

For women & girls in mixed groups - a welcoming environment is important, anyone who feels themself a minority is likely to feel nervous. Guys, don't talk over/shout over the girls. Go easy on the gratuitous 'advice' and 'corrections' - I've had female players complain to me about male players doing that. In one egregious case I booted a new guy after 1 session when he kept up the inappropriate 'advice' and other iffy comments towards a female player.

For male DMs, be a bit careful with your female NPCs. I'll put my hands up on this one. Many female players IME are sensitive to what they see as inappropriate portrayal of female NPCs. The strong, capable female NPC doesn't necessarily offset the passive sex object/quest object/damsel in distress female NPC. This is probably an area where gamer women & girls may be *less* tolerant than other women & girls. I know a scary German female ex-bodyguard player took me to task over it... *eep*

 

[Barastrondo]

As I said upthread, in terms of marketing D&D to women & girls I think it makes far more sense to target female geeks, rather than 'normal' women & girls. 'Days of Our Lives: The RPG' or 'My Litte Pony: The RPG' are IMO non-starters, and I seem to recall similar projects failing back in the '80s.

Targeting female geeks is going to be a lot easier, sure, particularly if it means you don't have to do much that you wouldn't do anyway. But it's precisely the displayed attitude that 'normal' women & girls are interested only in daytime soap operas and My Little Pony that is a barrier to recruiting them -- especially borderline cases who may not give half a damn about Star Trek or buy fantasy novels but who watch Walking Dead and Leverage and Game of Thrones.

The strategy of targeting people who already like what you like is easy as pie. The strategy of reaching out to people who might like some of what you like if you get to understand them a little better and meet them halfway is considerably harder. I don't expect most gamer geeks to actively try it, but I do find the attitude of They Are The Other, Don't Even Bother disappointing.

(Also, a My Little Pony RPG may not mean what you think it means in this day and age. Google "bronies" if you aren't sure.)

So IMO it's fine to appeal to female geek prejudices, many of which are similar to male geek prejudices. Including a hatred of Twilight.

Sure, gamers doing pretty much the same thing they've been doing all along is certainly the most reasonable expectation.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

What is "geek" female? Sure there are socially bit shy/lost people but group that ends up reading more books and or playing games, board or computer are mixed lot. Roleplaying games are just rare to find/harder to find/and harder to "get". Plus they require other interested parties to actually play.

To me marketing to some for of "geek" group is strange because it doesn't even exist.

So book/computer game is easy entertaiment. You can start alone. Roleplaying games only became sort of known because other medias weren't so complite. I think they would fail if invented today. Sure there would be some storytelling happening in one way or another.

Clyde Caldwell art was about much much than chainmail bikinis. There were these landscapes etc. And there were only few chainmail babes. Yes that azure bond ones is bad, but in book it was sacrificial thing.

4th edition art here doesn't get any more love than 3th edition. Less laughing maybe.

I think it's bit oversensetive to react to female npc:s. Like males they come with variation. If every female npc in game appears really tough I would get annoyed. Well depends a bit on gametheme generally. What really annoys me however, is when dm plays my ex-pc as npc and gets it wrong/forgets something relevant. Ownership feeling is strong.

But that constant advicing S'mon tells about is really a killer. Everyone I know gets annoyed over it. It's not really gender thing either, genarally it's good way to make new player feel awkard and unwanted.