A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[Maxperson]

This is all just assertion. Even the bit about not being able to control when you urinate.

Strawman. I didn't say you couldn't control when you go, only that you can't control when you have to go. The urge strikes when the urge strikes and you can only hold it or go.

 

[Aldarc]

Strawman. I didn't say you couldn't control when you go, only that you can't control when you have to go. The urge strikes when the urge strikes and you can only hold it or go.

And if you can control when you rage, why can't you control when you summon upon your reserves for a Second Wind? This mechanic reminds me of athletes who pace themselves and who know that they have reserves that they can draw upon for bursts of short-term energy.

 

[Maxperson]

And if you can control when you rage, why can't you control when you summon upon your reserves for a Second Wind? This mechanic reminds me of athletes who pace themselves and who know that they have reserves that they can draw upon for bursts of short-term energy.

Those runners aren't engaging second wind when they do that. They have paced themselves and have not exhausted themselves to the point where second wind kicks in. That pacing leaves them a reserve to call on when they need it. They aren't getting renewed energy(the definition of second wind), they are engaging energy that is still there from their pacing.

If second wind is like an athlete pacing himself, then they should have named it something else.

 

[Aldarc]

Those runners aren't engaging second wind when they do that. They have paced themselves and have not exhausted themselves to the point where second wind kicks in. That pacing leaves them a reserve to call on when they need it. They aren't getting renewed energy(the definition of second wind), they are engaging energy that is still there from their pacing.

If second wind is like an athlete pacing himself, then they should have named it something else.

As it turns out, such pacing is called getting your "second wind."

 

[Maxperson]

As it turns out, such pacing is called getting your "second wind."

And it also appears that they don't do it on purpose. It just happens.

 

[Aldarc]

And it also appears that they don't do it on purpose. It just happens.

Just like raging.

 

[Maxperson]

Just like raging.

Depends. Sometimes rages are triggered by something happening to you. Sometimes, though, you can psych yourself into a rage. It generally takes longer than 6 seconds, though.

 

[Emerikol]

Well ADnD locked you into a fixed class progression which you said that you did not like.

Maybe you misunderstood. I do prefer a system mechanism for powers like the feat concept. I am only talking about the multiclassing in 1e. The idea you advance every class you multiclass at the same time and the same rate xp wise.

 

[Emerikol]

This thread is about “metagame mechanics” and players making decisions based exclusively on (what you perceive as) observable phenomenon (biological, physical) from the character’s perspective.

I’m looking for your response in relation to that. So let me go a bit further and perhaps you can comment on this.

A 10th level Fighter is challenging a trio of Stone Giants on the edge of their plateau which sits 70 feet above the ground.

Situation 1:
<snip: D&D style example>

Situation 2:
<snip: More deadly system>

I’m looking for a response about the juxtaposition of the above two paradigms that engages with the thread topic.

I know falling damage is unrealistic and can lead to metagame decisions. It's why everyone coming and going has always houseruled falling. So we can all agree that falling isn't handled well in D&D. But that is a corner case and a houserule can fix it.

For the combat example, in a super heroic game the fighter really does believe that the Stone giants will not land a significant blow on him. He may fear getting worn down over time but he believes his skill will enable him to fend off the giants. It's as simple as that. High hit points is skill at turning serious wounds into far less serious wounds. The fighter knows that. Is it realistic? No. It is high heroic fantasy. But it is in game knowledge. The fighter knows he is a mighty warrior and can handle combat with these giants for a while.

You have to set the paradigms of your campaign and the level of realism. The level of realism though has little to do with whether it is metagame or not. It's a lot more about what you define as the world view of your game. I try to have a cinematic heroic view which I believe is where D&D is at. I could definitely enjoy a more realistic game but probably would prefer a different genre. I am currently working on a WOIN N.E.W. campaign set in the far future. So that game I am happy to have it be a bit less high fantasy.

 

[Emerikol]

Personally Barbarian rage seems metagame to me for many of the reasons given. Maybe it's just the name they gave it not indicating what is really happening. I know barbarian armies did work themselves up but again not in six seconds and not when alone.

I pretty much hate Barbarians anyway. So it's not a issue for me. The beauty of a modular system is you just don't play with stuff you don't like. It's why I was so hopeful about 5e. They could have sliced and diced it in a way that made everyone happy on these issues.

In my perfect world, barbarian, ranger, and rogue would all be variations of either a strength or agile fighter. They'd all fight really good. They would then have their speciality skill set. Fighters perhaps would get some special abilities to make them unique.

All of the above is off topic. Anybody care about the thread anymore? LOL.