D&D 4E A gathering of Martial Controllers - what do you think

[Garthanos]

Found Elsewhere in the Wilds

"I have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):
1. [ ] Trap-Setter
2. [ ] Grenade Tosser
3. [ ] Exotic Weapon Master
4. [ ] Trick-Shot Master
5. [ ] Grappler / Tripper / Brawler
6. [ ] Melee Multiattacker
7. [ ] Faster-than-Human Movement
8. [ ] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation
9. [ ] Minion Master

My idea does not provide a viable replacement for a Wizard as the party's Controller for the following reasons:
1. [ ] Powers require too much set up time to use in a newly entered area.
2. [ ] Powers rely on expendable (and potentially expensive) items that can run out.
3. [ ] Powers rely on items (or moves) that can be used by anyone in the manner described, even a child.
4. [ ] Powers rely on equipment which cannot be used in extremely common adventuring environments.
5. [ ] Powers rely on severe suspension of disbelief about monster / NPC behavior.
6. [ ] Concept is a one-trick wonder that does not lend itself to 30 levels of powers.
7. [ ] Concept, in the abstract, belongs better in one of the other three roles.
8. [ ] Concept's specific core mechanics are better associated with another role.
9. [ ] Concept relies on a core mechanic that, fundamentally, is not battlefield control.
10. [ ] Concept does not effectively provide battlefield control against multiple opponents.
11. [ ] Concept cannot control enemies before they reach the party.
12. [ ] Concept may be required to put itself in harm's way too much, leading

Additionally, your concept has the following stylistic issues:
1. [ ] Powers are prone to absurd, game-breaking results.
2. [ ] Powers violate physics and common sense (even at Heroic tier).
3. [ ] Powers rely on extremely specific gear and constrain flexibility in equipping the character.
4. [ ] Powers rely on items that are magical in origin, diluting the Martial flavor.
5. [ ] Concept requires a technology level that makes it unsuited for many games.
6. [ ] Concept is "gimmicky" in execution and is too specific to offer versatility in PC creation.
7. [ ] Reliance on minions may make the class take up an unfair amount of time at the table by making it a "party of one."


Some of the above are nonsense of course...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Found Elsewhere in the Wilds

"I have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):
1. [ ] Trap-Setter

Seems a bit odd. I mean sure, setting traps is cool, but its hard to imagine this being effective in a non-magical way when you enter an area. I guess it depends on just how fantastical you're willing to get.

2. [ ] Grenade Tosser

This is more feasible, but one must ask the question 'why not just toss lethal hand grenades?' I mean, even black powder based pipe bombs are LETHAL within about 5 meters in reality... Obviously some smoke bombs and whatnot have their uses, but in a flat-out fight to the death explody probably trumps smelly/smoky, etc. This is what kind of defeated a lot of the alchemical items. Again, its a matter of how fantastical you want to get. This might combine fairly well with option 1, the two could complement each other.

3. [ ] Exotic Weapon Master

Seems like more of a defender to me? That is to say, perhaps there's room for an entire class that uses certain exotic weapons, but fighters and such already cover this ground pretty well.

4. [ ] Trick-Shot Master

If you are so good that you can pin the guy's shirt to the wall, then why not just put the arrow right through his left eye and be done with it? That's the flaw with all of these martial archer type controller concepts, it just physically doesn't make sense. You can't possibly be such a good shot and not be able to just slay people outright with every shot.

5. [ ] Grappler / Tripper / Brawler

Again, seems like the fighter has this pretty well covered? To the extent that it ISN'T covered it still seems like more of a defenderish concept, or at least easily enough covered by adding a few more powers to the fighter. Brawler fighter is already a perfectly viable build.

6. [ ] Melee Multiattacker

Again, it seems like there's already builds of fighter that do this, and it seems more of a striker thing, in general. As with brawler, perhaps there are additional powers that could be deployed to make such a build more effective (I know the two-weapon fighter build didn't prove to be incredibly popular, though I guess it is a viable build option).

7. [ ] Faster-than-Human Movement

OK, but if I can move super fast, then I can use that for a lot of things besides just control? I mean it could work, in a sense. Anyway, what I thought of was Reed Richards stretching his arms all over the place! lol. Dunno if that qualifies as 'non-magical' in D&D land...

8. [ ] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation

Definitely stretching the definition of non-magical and of martial as a theme. Seems more psionic to me. I guess its a question of what will work for you thematically.

9. [ ] Minion Master

This does open up obvious questions. where do you get these minions, etc. The answers would appear to be either highly magical or highly gamist...

So, some of these ideas will certainly work, at least if you dial up your definition of what is fantastical but 'non-magical' (for the record I consider Martial to be magic, though it obviously does subsume a lot of stuff that is at least borderline possible in the real world). Given that its more a matter of deciding if there's a more appropriate power source than anything else, though a couple of these do run into narrative consistency issues. That's a thing for any equipment-based class, even the HoS Assassin has this issue.

 

[Garthanos]

Seems a bit odd. I mean sure, setting traps is cool, but its hard to imagine this being effective in a non-magical way when you enter an area. I guess it depends on just how fantastical you're willing to get.

This is more feasible, but one must ask the question 'why not just toss lethal hand grenades?' I mean, even black powder based pipe bombs are LETHAL within about 5 meters in reality... Obviously some smoke bombs and whatnot have their uses, but in a flat-out fight to the death explody probably trumps smelly/smoky, etc. This is what kind of defeated a lot of the alchemical items. Again, its a matter of how fantastical you want to get. This might combine fairly well with option 1, the two could complement each other.

Yeh that is my thinking some of these can be mixed together... a batman uses a smoke bomb to confuse enemies protect allies by messing with enemies line of site

8. [ ] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation

Meh... intimidation in combat is emotion manipulation

Deception is almost that too.... both are integral to combat psychology

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Meh... intimidation in combat is emotion manipulation

Deception is almost that too.... both are integral to combat psychology

Oh, I agree. I'm just thinking about what is 'mundane' (IE non-magical). Its pretty unlikely you can get your opponent to surrender IRL in the middle of a fracas (give yourself a few minutes and then it gets easier, but you gotta have some leverage too). I think this is already handled by Intimidate/Diplomacy, though some skill powers would be fine there.

But getting your opponent to just give up in the middle of a sword fight? I guess you could do 'damage' and call it undermining their morale. Bards seem to do that already. I don't have a problem with it, it just seems fantastical enough to be considered magic for the most part. Maybe there's some leeway there. Anyhow, martial is already magic to me, so I'm not actually against this at all...

 

[Garthanos]

But getting your opponent to just give up in the middle of a sword fight? .

How about moving them and inducing various controller statuses with emotion in the middle of a sword fight... smh

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

How about moving them and inducing various controller statuses with emotion in the middle of a sword fight... smh

Sure, why not?

EDIT: You know what? Here's what I really think. Why shouldn't ALL this sort of stuff really be skill powers? I mean lets make these things skill USES, and then say to people, "hey, this is just like in an SC, come up with narrative justification." So if you want to make fun of the goblins so they charge you great, but you have to actually say "I make fun of the goblins so they charge me", but don't expect that to work on a black pudding. Because it is NOT a power that you had to spend a slot on, then there's no questions about these sorts of restrictions.

I think THAT may be the best guiding principle. I mean, attacks need narrative justification too, if you swing your sword, well that requires you to be in reach, etc.

 

[Garthanos]

the department of redundancy department strikes again

 

[Garthanos]

Sure, why not?

EDIT: You know what? Here's what I really think. Why shouldn't ALL this sort of stuff really be skill powers? I mean lets make these things skill USES, and then say to people, "hey, this is just like in an SC, come up with narrative justification." So if you want to make fun of the goblins so they charge you great, but you have to actually say "I make fun of the goblins so they charge me", but don't expect that to work on a black pudding. Because it is NOT a power that you had to spend a slot on, then there's no questions about these sorts of restrictions.

I think THAT may be the best guiding principle. I mean, attacks need narrative justification too, if you swing your sword, well that requires you to be in reach, etc.

sigh

You noticed that I put 4 or 5 different flavor texts on the Persuasive Strike above?

Always remember that guiding rule:
Wizards and Warriors need explicit abilities for opposite reasons... for Wizards its because they really do not have any inherent limitations and for Warriors its because they need permission to pass beyond purely mundane to do Awesome.


EDIT: it's fragging easy to say no to martial types and fraggin easy to say yes to magical ones..

EDIT2: tell me about the narrative restriction on what a spell can do. (and start counting that bat guano)

 

[Garthanos]

Guess I could also call persuasive strike "Mastery by force of arms"

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That hunter threw a bomb... called rapid shot.(Archers Barrage I would call it)

It was 9 squares worth at will, weapon ranged but at -2 on to hit for each target in the area.

That wirks.

I was just pointing out that the executioner poisons are basically already controller effects, just make them a burst Y within X, and you have controller dailies. Then ditch assassin's strike for regular Assassin encounter powers, or weaker versions of the poison bombs, and ditch the +1d8 feature for more control power in the at will powers.