D&D 5E A Matter Of Initiative

[Sir Brennen]

Once when I was running a game of 13th Age (which uses the standard d20 initiative system a la 3e/4e/5e) the party was exploring a tomb with the paladin in the lead. When he entered a room with a bunch of skeletons in it, I called for initiative rolls. The result was that the paladin had to go last despite being in the front and being fully ready for combat. This didn't make any sense in the fiction and the only justification would be to say he stumbled for some weird reason or was uncharacteristically passive, either of which would go against the type of heroic and cinematic gaming I like. I saw this as a huge system fail, so much so I immediately started looking for alternative methods.

I think establishing PC initiative outside of combat, like [MENTION=6774924]secondhander[/MENTION] suggests, is a great idea for situations like this. When the party approaches a door, go through the existing initiative order and see what everyone is doing. PCs who have a higher init than the paladin can act, but they are doing so *before* the door opens. The cleric casts a guidance cantrip on the paladin, the rogue hides (bonus action) then Readies (Action) to fire his shortbow at the first creature he sees when the paladin opens the door (using the rogue's Reaction). Then on his init, the paladin throws open the door, sees the skeletons, and charges in to attack. Sure the rogue gets his arrow off first, but it now makes sense in the narrative (he was ready!), but he's not running into melee ahead of the paladin. (He could run in, if that was his Readied action, but he couldn't also attack).

In fact, I may have to incorporate this as a house rule into my current game. I.e., have players roll a "non-combat" initiative at the start of the session. Ask them what they are doing in any given scenario (hex crawling in the wilderness, searching a room, having dinner with the duke) in init order. When someone does something to start a fight, just continue from there, using the existing order for combat initiative. Then roll to "reset" initiative *after* combat, and perhaps after every long or short rest. Then there's no "you attack someone? Roll initiative!" where the character who literally initiated combat goes last. Combat is just something that happened to begin in the middle of the initiative order.

 

[hejtmane]

A brief and (hopefully) simple question for the disjunct:

By default rules, is starting combat on an initiative other than the highest initiative allowed?

Bonus:

In what situations would you consider it reasonable do to such a thing?

I gave up on D&D standard intitiave and went to the Popcorn method or a version of it anyways and it has made the games more fun and kept my players more engaged and no compliants from my side. It also allows the players to do a quick stragety which they find fun and sometimes causes ruffles at the table which is kind of fun. Also if they him or haw around to much the monster get a free attack even with that the players love it and it gets rid of the man we have to role inititave again we already know blah blah is going first he has he highest dex and I will be last. Anyways it has its own quirks and things I have to do to account for it but overall it has been the best home rule I have made

http://angrydm.com/2013/09/popcorn-...and-pathfinder-initiative-with-a-stupid-name/

 

[jaelis]

The DMG says explicitly that the dice are there to help the game, not control it. If you as DM feel any outcome in the game shouldn't be random for some reason, then you can always overrule the dice.

I think special initiative situations are a fine example of when that makes sense. If combat starts with a specific action, I think it works well to simply assign that character first initiative.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The default method is that you roll initiative when 2 opposing sides become aware of each other. Generally, that means the second a door opens and at least one of the enemies have line of sight to at least one PC and at least one of the PCs have line of sight to at least one of the enemies.

This gets a little confused in situations where you can already see the enemies but you didn't think they were dangerous or that you were going to fight them. In this case, you roll for initiative when someone declares they are taking a violent action (or at least an action that the other side is going to want to react to).

When someone has said "I cast charm person", I've said "Ok, roll for initiative since the person you are talking to sees you reach into your spell component pouch and start moving your fingers around while mumbling. They don't know what you are casting and they think it is harmful. It takes a couple of seconds to complete your spell and they aren't just going to stand there and wait for it to finish. If they go before you, they might kill you before you can cast the spell."

I know that in some situations it SEEMS counter-intuitive to have the person who opens the door go last but look at it this way:

You are about to open a door. You hear monsters inside. You open the door ready to do battle with them. You need to look around and quickly take stock of the enemy's locations, the obstacles in the room, any traps or other dangers you might not have heard and then you need to move the distance across the room to get into melee with an enemy, determine the right kind of strike to use and the angle to strike at.

All of that takes time. It isn't immediate. Although we run everything as a turn based system, in theory it is all happening simultaneously. The Fighter who kicked open the door isn't actually standing there while all his allies run past him and kill all the monsters. He's running up with them and winding up his swing, but his faster allies get their attacks in half a second before he does. Or the monsters heard the door open and were just quicker about running up to him before he got a chance to survey the room.

It's just that in an effort not to go insane, we only let one person act at a time and there's some weirdness involved in that it appears the Fighter who opens the door stands there dumbfounded while everyone else fights around him. It's just an issue you have to deal with since the alternative is constant arguments about who goes first.

After all, if the Fighter is ready for combat, hears enemies in the room and opens the door, he should go first. But what happens if the enemies heard the Fighter before he opened the door and got their weapons ready and prepared to attack as soon as the door was opened. Surely they should go first. But what if the enemies are across the room and only have melee weapons and so does the Fighter. The Ranger with a bow standing behind the Fighter was also prepared for combat and it takes less time to fire the bow than run across the room. So surely HE should go first. But wait, one of the enemies has a bow as well and he nocked it and pointed it at the door before it opened. The Ranger has a Fighter in front of him and has to wait for the door to open fully before he can see the enemies. The enemy just needs the door open far enough to see the Fighter in order to fire. Surely HE should go first.

You then eventually figure out that you could make a case for literally ANYONE in the combat going first and you're back to just rolling randomly. That's kind of the point of initiative. It's also why Christopher Perkins said that the Ready action cannot be taken until AFTER initiative is rolled and you are in combat.

 

[Ristamar]

Initiative is an ability check. You can adjudicate it like any other check as long as you're fair and consistent.

 

[Ristamar]

Double post.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

I wondered that too. It sounds as though Greenstone doesn't think an assassin NPC should be able to do what an assassin is supposed to be able to do.

Then you've missed my point.

Changing the surprise and initiative rules is more powerful for the monsters than for the characters. A GM can kill a character before Initiative is rolled, using features like Assassinate (my example above). No saving throw, no reaction, no chance to duck or hide, no shield spell - just one Attack Roll (at advantage) followed by overwhelming critical damage. Are the players OK with this?

If the players want the GM to adjust surprise and initiative rules then the GM needs to make sure the players know beforehand that this rule hinders their characters more than the monsters. I've sat at a table where the players wanted the GM to allow them to do things before Initiative. The first time the GM used those rule changes against the characters, it got very tense. I don't want your table to be in the same situation.

 

[machineelf]

Then you've missed my point.

Changing the surprise and initiative rules is more powerful for the monsters than for the characters. A GM can kill a character before Initiative is rolled, using features like Assassinate (my example above). No saving throw, no reaction, no chance to duck or hide, no shield spell - just one Attack Roll (at advantage) followed by overwhelming critical damage. Are the players OK with this?

If the players want the GM to adjust surprise and initiative rules then the GM needs to make sure the players know beforehand that this rule hinders their characters more than the monsters. I've sat at a table where the players wanted the GM to allow them to do things before Initiative. The first time the GM used those rule changes against the characters, it got very tense. I don't want your table to be in the same situation.

I'm not arguing for changing the initiative rules; I'm arguing for playing according to the rules as written in the books. That means the assassin may in fact get advantage on a roll and deal critical damage if he attacks from hiding, the same way a player character can. That's how the rules work, so the players should be OK with that. Hey, that's what assassins do. Your players better be careful.

Also keep in mind that the PCs DO in fact roll initiative at the beginning of the combat, and the target of the attack may or may not be able to use their reaction depending on whether the surprised condition was applied and whether their initiative is higher or lower than the attacking NPC.

 

[Arial Black]

Don't start combat with the door closed! Problem solved!

No-one can take any Action In Combat outside of initiative; no pre-combat(!) attacks against an enemy, no Ready actions.

If anyone wants to cast a spell outside of initiative they can (assuming it doesn't kick the fight off!) and they do not need to use (and cannot use) the Cast A Spell Action In Combat to do so; they just cast it.

So, when the players are standing outside the door and casting buff spells on each other, no initiative, no Actions allowed or required (you just do stuff) and definitely no Readied Actions.

It doesn't matter who kicks the door down because initiative hasn't been rolled yet.

As soon as the door is open and anyone from either side can see anyone from the enemy side, determine surprise and roll initiative.

When you watch police/military shows where the cops/soldiers have to break the door down, the guy doing the breaking is not the first in! He steps aside to let everyone else in!