A question for CR experts.

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

If you a couple of PCs, a clr 27, and a sorc 27 working in concert, then the CR of the couple is 29. (doubling the monsters adds +2 to existing CR). Since this is only one opponent (as opposed to the couple) he only gets one action compared to the two that the couple would get a round (or however much they may get- it is still 1:2 ratio) he is slightly less dangerous than fighting the couple- so CR28 sounds right.

+2 is my understanding as well, but there obviously has to be some special attention given past lvl 20 as ordinary rules begin to be difficult to apply. Think of this in terms of experience points. If you add the experience points for seperate creatures to get to lvl 27, you would NOT be able to create a lvl 54 epic charachter. The benefits of gaining EPIC levels ( above 20th ) should and do outweigh gaining non-epic levels, so multiclassed charahters ( say 27/27 ) would get WHIPPED by an Epic level (single class) 54!

Without looking at the stat block for Moloch, I'd rate him CR 29 + special abilities/bonuses not relating to either cleric or sorcerer class levels - basically adding the EL or level adjustment for size/natural armor etc... /innate abilities etc... ( probably adding only another 1-3 CR's )

CR's are REALLY tough though! It never seems like their gear is properly acounted for. Powerful magic like artifacts should significantly raise a CR. If a charachter has less than normal magic weapons/gear, that should lower a CR right?

But feel free to discount anything i have written her, cuz I am by no means an expert!

edit : to add content about muticlass epics

 

[Lord Ben]

No matter how many levels he has he can only perform a certain number of actions per round. And he's only one target.

 

[Nightfall]

True but he can still cast a quicken spell....if he have had the sense to pick that feat...

 

[Balgus]

Lord Ben:
No matter how many levels he has he can only perform a certain number of actions per round. And he's only one target.

Just to argue otherwise for a second (and this by no menas implies i am stating his CR is higher than the 28 I formerly stated).

A higher level character (though is limited by the number of actions in a round (BAB) is able to case higher level spells- so is able use meta feats to quicken many spells.

Also, a higher level mage is able to create and maintain more simulacrum, and or shield guardians, and a clr can control undeads (higher level = more powerful and in number)

so your simplified argument is not very valid. Although it does hold water- it is a little more complicated than just one person as opposed to two...

 

[Lord Ben]

Well, to go to the initial heart of the arguement, the CR should represnet the challenge rating (duh). There are some quick and easy calculations that can be used as decent guidelines for CR such as class levels, etc. However the end result (CR = Toughness) is more important then the formulas used to estimage it (Class levels = CR = Toughness).

According to the formulas in the DMG a ring of Jump +30 costs the same as a Ring of Concentration +30 or a Ring of Use Magic Device +30. But they're not equal at all in power or usefullness. Hence you see a Ring of Jumping cost 2000gp and items that boost concentration or use magic device don't even exist in the DMG and if I'm wrong and they do then they're either expensive or don't provide +30