A rant on ASF

[Stalker0]

I personally think ASF is pretty bogus myself. Either you have to take two precious feats or a level in a nonarcane class to get it...there you've paid the price. Your getting more AC for a higher ACP and weaker spellcasting or fewer feats. That's enough, believe me not every wizard will be jumping to make that sacrifice.

 

[RigaMortus2]

ASF has never really hindered any games I played in. Either the people I play with are cunning in how they get around ASF, or they suck it up and make the necessary die rolls when casting in armor. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail. It's all aprt of the game, and frankly I think it adds to the game. There is nothing better than having your Fighter/Mage try to cast an important spell during combat and hoping it goes off without a hitch. And then it does!!! Likewise, when the spell fails because of ASF, it makes the group think more, play smarter, be less sloppy, rely on the next person to get them out of the game. It all adds to the excitement IMO.

 

[Zandel]

Originaly posted by Turanil
Just imagine a 100th level wizard with 350 hp, a +50/+45/+40/+35 BAB, martial proficiency with the sword, and wearing a full plate... Aaahh... I am tired of playing 3rd level characters.

Thats BAB +10/+5

After 20th level you never again gain anymore BAB.

 

[jigokusabre]

Well, if 1e rule you posted said

"The character may mix functions freely and still gain experience, although restrictions regarding armor, shield, and/or weapon apply with regard to operations particular to one or both classes." (Emhpasis added.)

Which would mean that if a wizard can't cast spells in armor, then he would be no more abile to with a level in fighter.

Anyhow, there are mechanics to address your arguments.

1. Why does brestplate have ASF while it leaves my arms relatively uncovered? Presumably because there are bracers, armlets, or other things that impare the somatic processies of arcane magics. Breastplate has a lesser arcane spell failure than chainmail or heavier armors, also.

2. Can't I have armor custom made to lessen the penalty?
Yes, you can have it constructed with lighter, more flexible materials, like mythral.

3. What about proficieny? Why doesn't training in armor's use grant me a lesser ASF?
Because the feat / class level grants you knowledge and training necessary to use the armor as it was intended, in combat. Why? Because that's what fighters use armor for. Fighters don't use it to cast spells.

4. Can't I undergo training to make myself more capable of casting spells in armor, reducing ASF?
Yeah, that would be a prestige class. Spellsword, Bladesinger, and I think Eldrich Knight reduce ASF as features of the class.

5. Why don't Clerics incur ASF? Why can bards cast in light armor?
A cleric's somatic component involves holding their holy symbol out and chanting a prayer. It's more than one can do when bound or held, but less than a wizards arcane gestures involved. As for bards, their magics are based more are on their oral performances than on their arcane gestures. A bard's suggestion and a wizard's suggestion are essentially different spells, cast in different manners. (The same can be said of a cleric's hold person and a wizard's hold person. It's more of a cop-out than the Cleric / Wizard difference, but never the less, that's the explination I've come up with.

6. Why is using a rope or being in a storm demanding of concentration of clerics and bards, but armor is not?
Because outside conditions may affect your ability to focus on casting a spell as opposed to the more simplistic somatic compontents. If you don't concentrate enough, the jostling of rope or a nearby strike of lightning might interupt your spell.

Ultimately, it should be a caster level check or a concentration check, because ASF stands nearly alone with concealment as one of the few d% checks.

 

[Darth Malakh]

I've never played rolemaster, but it sounds like at least their rules are internally consistent. Are the penalties surmountable by training?

Ben

Woa! Glory! Words of appreciation for Rolemaster! On a DnD board!

Blasphemy!

Yeah, in RM there's a skill or sub-skill for pretty much everything, including coping with (armor/gear dependant) penalties to spellcasting.

BTW: when 3.0 came out, to me it seemed a lot like the designers had taken a good dose of RM when re-inventing DnD

Rolemaster is definitely worth a try. -tables & +gut feel for the rules and you'll have a pretty
DnD alternative

Malakh

 

[Merlion]

ASF has never really hindered any games I played in. Either the people I play with are cunning in how they get around ASF, or they suck it up and make the necessary die rolls when casting in armor. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail. It's all aprt of the game, and frankly I think it adds to the game. There is nothing better than having your Fighter/Mage try to cast an important spell during combat and hoping it goes off without a hitch. And then it does!!! Likewise, when the spell fails because of ASF, it makes the group think more, play smarter, be less sloppy, rely on the next person to get them out of the game. It all adds to the excitement IMO.

If this is true, you should make your Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers deal with the same risk as well.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well since Clerics and Druids and Paladins can cast spells in armor with no trouble, I've never understood why mages cant do the same.

A cleric's somatic component involves holding their holy symbol out and chanting a prayer. It's more than one can do when bound or held, but less than a wizards arcane gestures involved. As for bards, their magics are based more are on their oral performances than on their arcane gestures. A bard's suggestion and a wizard's suggestion are essentially different spells, cast in different manners. (The same can be said of a cleric's hold person and a wizard's hold person. It's more of a cop-out than the Cleric / Wizard difference, but never the less, that's the explination I've come up with.

That's not bad.

IMHO, its also a hallmark of the difference between arcane magic (born of the research of the rational mind), and divine magic (a gift from the gods). The magic systems have 2 different sources, so have different rules.

As for ASF in general, I have to say that I also like that it exists, but I'm not completely sold on the mechanic.

 

[Merlion]

IMHO, its also a hallmark of the difference between arcane magic (born of the research of the rational mind), and divine magic (a gift from the gods). The magic systems have 2 different sources, so have different rules.

Well, I've also never understood or liked the "arcane" and "divine" magic divide. And indeed, untill 3rd edition there was no such divide, presented in that way...even less so in 1st edition.

And in fact being subject or not subject to spell failure is one of the only actual "different rules" between the two types of magic, in terms of actual mechanics.

A cleric's somatic component involves holding their holy symbol out and chanting a prayer. It's more than one can do when bound or held, but less than a wizards arcane gestures involved.

That pretty much sounds like fluffy excuse making to me. Its basically "Clerics can cast spells in armor and wizards cant, because its always been that way"


But the fact remains that mechanically Clerics are just as powerful and useful as spellcasters as Wizards are, and yet they have profciency with armor and can cast spells in it unhindered, and Wizards can not. This to me is an imbalance. It should either be removed, or it should apply to everyone.

Using the whole "gift from the gods" rationale with the Cleric is rather dangerous. Just because flavor wise that is how they get there powers, it doesnt mean they should be allowed to have advantages over other classes mechanically.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, I've also never understood or liked the "arcane" and "divine" magic divide.

Its a distinction that goes back to medieval times (at least)- divine powers are granted by gods (obviously) and are a sign of divine favor- all other magic was considered to be a subversion of reality/will of the good gods, and flowed either from pacts with evil gods (demons, etc.) or from man's "meddling" in things he didn't fully understand. In fact some societies believed that seeking to understand creation with the rational mind was taboo- it represented a disruption of the natural order.

And indeed, untill 3rd edition there was no such divide, presented in that way...even less so in 1st edition.

While true, the rules always maintained seperate spell lists (with some crossover), and had different terminology (spheres vs schools).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But the fact remains that mechanically Clerics are just as powerful and useful as spellcasters as Wizards are, and yet they have profciency with armor and can cast spells in it unhindered, and Wizards can not. This to me is an imbalance. It should either be removed, or it should apply to everyone.

I would respectfully disagree.

Using the whole "gift from the gods" rationale with the Cleric is rather dangerous. Just because flavor wise that is how they get there powers, it doesnt mean they should be allowed to have advantages over other classes mechanically.

That I would agree with. There is no obvious reason that everyone dedicated to a path granting spellcasting from a divine source should have so many gimmes based on a hokey form of authenticity.

FREX, it would be perfectly reasonable to give clerics only Light and Medium Armor Proficiency. If they want to wear heavy armor, they should take the Fighter level, spend the feat, or choose a god with a domain that grants such a benefit.