A rant on ASF

[fuindordm]

That is a very superficial analysis.

I recognize that the cleric now has a good mix of spells including many options in combat that it previously lacked. However, the wizard still completely dominates in spells that "rewrite the rules". Low level spells like Invisibility, Spider Climb, Disguise, Alter Self, and Fly potentially eliminate obstacles in a way that spells on the standard cleric list cannot hold a candle to. Look at higher level spells and we see Polymorph, Dimension Door, Teleport, Wall of Force, and Disintegrate.

Unless, of course, you have a cleric with the Travel domain, or War, or Trickery, or Luck...
the list goes on and on. There are very few signature wizard spells left of great utility such as you describe that are not part of a domain.

Ben

 

[Deset Gled]

Exactly--the flat d% chance is horribly inconsistent with the rationale for ASF and the rest of the rules,...

I see ASF being a d% chance as being completely necessary in order to uphold the mechanics it's meant to represent. Ideally, it really would be modeled by a concentration check or something similar. The problem with this, though, is that it would then be a check that is impossible for low level characters and a non-issue for high level characters. True, this could be overcome by have a formula for difficulty based on spell level, caster level, armor, and skills, but the complexity of such a system is well beyond another prinicpal of the 3.x system: keep it simple, stupid.

My two cents, anyway.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Unless, of course, you have a cleric with the Travel domain, or War, or Trickery, or Luck...
the list goes on and on. There are very few signature wizard spells left of great utility such as you describe that are not part of a domain.

And the wizard gets access to all the best of these domain spells for a little coin.

How many domains do your clerics usually have?

You are missing the big picture. Encounter reshaping magic works best in combination. When the Wizard or Sorceror makes the entire party Invisible or Flying or both(!), there are lots of tough challenges that become cakewalks.

 

[Crothian]

Unless, of course, you have a cleric with the Travel domain, or War, or Trickery, or Luck...
the list goes on and on. There are very few signature wizard spells left of great utility such as you describe that are not part of a domain.

Ben

Actually, all of them are still signiture wizard spells. Just becasue someone can have access to the spell doesn't take it way from the Wizard.

 

[Verequus]

I've never been very happy with specialization in any edition, but it hasn't bothered me enough to make major changes to the system.

It may be not integratable into the core rules, but I like the solution available in Elements of Magic Revised. You don't have access to all possible spells like in the core rules, but only to certain spell lists (which don't contain actual spells, but 'enhancements', which are used to construct the actual spells). If you want to specialize, then you have to take 6 related spell lists and then a feat, which gives you some cool extra. You aren't banned from taking any 'opposed' spell lists - in fact, you can become specialist in every available category, if are willing to take the appropriate spell lists and to invest into the feats. Another advantage is, that you grow into the specialist role and don't get shunt into it from level 1.

 

[BalazarIago]

They're in the metaphorical oven. I'll let you know when they're done.

I've never played rolemaster, but it sounds like at least their rules are internally consistent. Are the penalties surmountable by training?

Ben

Rolemaster has a lot of rules regarding Magic, but to keep things as simple as possible, I will just focus on Essence Casters. There are different versions of the game, but just dealing with the RMSS (Rolemaster Standard System) here goes.

The first thing to decide is if a Casting Maneuver is required.
No roll is required under the following conditions:
The spell is not of higher level than the caster.
The spell is not caster as an instantaneous action.
The caster has not used more than 25% of his overall power points
The caster has at least one hand free
The caster at least whispers key words of the spell. (In Rolemaster, a caster can decide to cast his spells silently, but must roll to do so)
The caster is not wearing Armour
The caster is not wearing a helm.
The caster is carrying less than 52.5 lbs of living organic Material
The caster is carrying less than 10.5 lbs of non-living organic material.
The caster is carrying less than 5.5 lbs of inorganic material
If a roll is required than the following factors apply:
Stat bonus+Spell list bonus+50+ modifiers

A chart shows a difference between the level of the caster - the level of the spell. (in D&D terms, the level needed to cast the spell)
This number is compared to the number of rounds of preparation taking. The longer the preparation (up to 9 rounds), the extra the bonus.
Other modifications:
How much power points are left. (how tired you are)
Spell type, (in rolemaster, it is possible for a Essence mage to learn and cast Channeling magic, or for a Magician to learn and cast spells from another class, even though both are Essence casters)
Free hand, penalty for no hands free, 0 for one hand free, bonus for 2 hands free.
Use of voice, Penalty for silenced, 0 for whispered, 0 for spoken and bonus for shout.
Helmets, 0 for none, and then penalties growing with Leather, leather and metal, and metal.
Equipment - -1 per 5lbs over 50lbs Living Organic Material, -1 per 1lbs over 10lbs of Non-living Organic Material, and -2 per 1lbs over 5lbs of inorganic material.
Armor (this is simplified) 0 for cloth, penalty for Leather, bigger penalty for chain and then even bigger penalty for metal. (Full plate armor is -90)
So, there are ways to get some bonuses to counter the penalties, plus a good stat

 

[sukael]

Thats BAB +10/+5

After 20th level you never again gain anymore BAB.

Not necessarily true--racial hit dice always give base attack bonus, even above 20th (for example, 39-HD great wyrm dragons).

 

[jigokusabre]

somatic explinataion

This is a flavor explanation only. In terms of the rules, all three classes need 'one arm able to gesture freely' to cast spells with somatic components--so all three should suffer the same restrictions to spellcasting. And they do... for everything but armor.

If the somatic component for Bards and clerics is really different than that of Wizards and Sorcerers, this should be reflected in the rules--they should, in fact, be two different components altogether. Call them G (for trivial gesture used only to direct the spell) and C (for the horrible Contortion of the arm and hand that is so unnatural, armor--and only armor--will prevent the correct range of motion altogether.)

But that's the whole point, there IS a distinction, which is why its called "ARCANE spell failure" (meaning that divine casting is uneffected) and why there is a specific rule stating that bards can cast in light armor without penalty.

 

[jigokusabre]

I see ASF being a d% chance as being completely necessary in order to uphold the mechanics it's meant to represent. Ideally, it really would be modeled by a concentration check or something similar. The problem with this, though, is that it would then be a check that is impossible for low level characters and a non-issue for high level characters. True, this could be overcome by have a formula for difficulty based on spell level, caster level, armor, and skills, but the complexity of such a system is well beyond another prinicpal of the 3.x system: keep it simple, stupid.

My two cents, anyway.

Who cares if its too hard early on and too easy late later levels? Things get easier for higher level characters.

It seems like a basic DC 20 (or DC 20 + Spell level) with your armor check penalty as a modifier would work out well enough. That way, masterwork armor would be easier to cast in, as would special materials... the spending of skill points requires some investment on the player's part to represent the characters practice in battle casting, and simple proficieny or new class level does not negate the penalty.

This might start a slippery slope, though. If mages can cast in armor, why can't a monk throw a punch in armor? Why can't my ranger use a bow in (heavy) armor? Then... the gloves are off, why wouldn't everyone walk around in full plate armor? Why can't my barbarian fast move in heavy armor?

It's partially a game balance issue, in that the advantage of the fighter and the paladin and the cleric is that they can suit up in the cheap, heavy, powerful armor that no other classes (beyond some suppliment classes) get.

 

[Mokona]

I hope the armor restrictions are removed from magic, or at least relaxed, in 4th edition. To balance that out I'd dole out armor proficiency a little slower than Light, Medium, Heavy, and Shields all at first level for many full fighting classes.