A rant on ASF

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why ever wear Chainmail when a Breastplate is better in every way; oh, 50 gold, but that price difference is meaningless to characters for most of their life.

2 main reasons: roleplay and armor availability.

 

[Mokona]

2 main reasons: roleplay and armor availability.

Unfortunately, neither of those reasons for wearing chainmail instead of a breastplate are supported by the rules or the Player's Handbook. Because roleplaying restrictions (DM or self-imposed) and availability aren't written down anywhere they can't provide rules balance. Many games will differ wildly on the presence or absence of those factors.

 

[fuindordm]

This sort of thing is part of why I think that in 4E (if/when it comes out), arcane and divine magic should run on two separate systems (sort of like the difference between D&D magic and psionics, or the new "Magic of Incarnum" system that will be coming out sooner or later).

Exactly, and the Arcana Unearthed system is a good example of this. There's nothing inherently unbalancing about giving everyone access to healing magic, for example--it just spreads the duty out among the rest of the party.

I also seem to remember that in these books Monte does make a distinction between the somatic components of simple and complex spells, saying that complex spells require complicated gestures made with the entire body, and are therefore limited by armor--but simple spells have been streamlined through centuries of research down to simpler gestures that are not limited by armor. I don't remember if there were any new game mechanics supporting the distinction though.

Ben

 

[Asmo]

ASF? Is it so hard to write Acane Spell Failure? It took me several minutes before I even relised what the thread was about...
Sorry for the crapping,but this is something that annoys me highly.

Asmo

 

[Bront]

There are plenty of ways to get around not wearing armor that aren't that much more expensive than spells. Eventualy, a Wizard can get Bracers of Armor, Neclaces of Natural Armor, and even Rings of Protection.

Honestly, I've played only one game where any player was willing to wear anything heavier than Light Armor due to the armor check penalties, other class restrictions, or what not. I think that's been more of a fluke due to the classes, but still.

 

[BalazarIago]

The out of game reason: Game balance and to preserve the concept of cloth wearing casters.

The in game reason: Various types of material (leather, chain, plate) interfers with the formation of magical energies as they infuse the casters body and as he releases those energies. This interferrance can prevent the spell from properly forming.

 

[Staffan]

I also seem to remember that in these books Monte does make a distinction between the somatic components of simple and complex spells, saying that complex spells require complicated gestures made with the entire body, and are therefore limited by armor--but simple spells have been streamlined through centuries of research down to simpler gestures that are not limited by armor. I don't remember if there were any new game mechanics supporting the distinction though.

Not quite. Instead the components required depend on the caster rather than the spell: magisters (who are the only ones that have access to all complex spells without spending a crapload of feats) need both verbal and somatic components, while greenbonds only need verbal components but only have access to simple spells plus complex and exotic spells with the [plant] and [positive energy] descriptors. There are also mageblades, witches, and runethanes, but I can't recall off-hand whether they need somatics or not.

 

[Merlion]

There are also mageblades, witches, and runethanes, but I can't recall off-hand whether they need somatics or not.

Mageblades do, unless they have their athame in hand in which case they basically dont. Runethane's do, and Witches do. Witches are also the only ones that use material components. They can cast without them but it takes longer.

 

[Pickaxe]

Who cares if its too hard early on and too easy late later levels? Things get easier for higher level characters.

It seems like a basic DC 20 (or DC 20 + Spell level) with your armor check penalty as a modifier would work out well enough. That way, masterwork armor would be easier to cast in, as would special materials... the spending of skill points requires some investment on the player's part to represent the characters practice in battle casting, and simple proficieny or new class level does not negate the penalty.

I think anyone considering playing a 1st level spellcaster would care. What 1st level character can make a DC 20 Concentration check easily? Even if you include Combat Casting AND Skill Focus (Concentration), a character with full ranks and a 12 Con would fail one third of the time-- and that's just for zero-level spells! Not a lot of fun to be a 1st level wizard. I think a better starting point would be a non-Concentration check, a "spell check," DC 0 or 0+spell level, modified by Armor Check Penalty, with a synergy bonus for 5 ranks in Concentration. Give each spellcasting class a modifier: +0 for sorc/wiz, +n for each of the rest (where n varies from class to class). Give bards a synergy bonus for 5 ranks in Perform (perhaps instead of an inherent modifier). The desired result is that no actual roll is necessary (because the check modifier equals or exceeds the DC-1) as long as the traditional classes are wearing their traditional armor (or lack thereof).

--Axe

 

[fuindordm]

I think anyone considering playing a 1st level spellcaster would care. What 1st level character can make a DC 20 Concentration check easily? Even if you include Combat Casting AND Skill Focus (Concentration), a character with full ranks and a 12 Con would fail one third of the time-- and that's just for zero-level spells! Not a lot of fun to be a 1st level wizard. I think a better starting point would be a non-Concentration check, a "spell check," DC 0 or 0+spell level, modified by Armor Check Penalty, with a synergy bonus for 5 ranks in Concentration. Give each spellcasting class a modifier: +0 for sorc/wiz, +n for each of the rest (where n varies from class to class). Give bards a synergy bonus for 5 ranks in Perform (perhaps instead of an inherent modifier). The desired result is that no actual roll is necessary (because the check modifier equals or exceeds the DC-1) as long as the traditional classes are wearing their traditional armor (or lack thereof).

--Axe

A softer option:

15+spell level gives a DC range 15-24
Full concentration ranks + combat casting +1 Con - armor check penalty of 4 (breastplate) = a bonus of 4+level to the roll. This is still pretty tricky at low levels, and without yet more investment such as taking the skill focus feat, remains so even to the mid levels. At 10th level you get +14, compared to a DC of 20 for your highest level spell; at 15th level you're at +19, compared to a DC of 23. So you get better and better, but you still have a non-negligible failure rate.

What this amounts to is saying to the armored spellcaster, if you want to wear something better than Mage Armor all the time, you need a high Str, max ranks in Con, and Skill Focus (Concentration) to beat your failure rate down to the 5-10% range. Mithril armor will help a lot, of course, but at a DC of 15+spell level you're making it highly likely that they'll take the feat to wear armor.

In which case, you might as well just use an Armored Casting feat.

A DC of 10+spell level, on the other hand, renders the check trivial once you hit mid-levels; you'll see mithril-breastplated spellcasters much more commonly. If you think a mithril breastplate with no spell failure is more valuable to the spellcaster than one level of lost spellcasting, then 10+spell level is
probably not enough.

Ben