A variant take on tiers - paragon and epic as modular options

[Mercurius]

Rather than just add on to another re-visit of tiers, I thought I'd offer a variant take that might kill two rocs with one crossbow bolt; that is, offer--but not require--a variation of game play that many (but not all) enjoy: superheroic D&D.

This inquiry started with the question: What if upper level tiers (and "superheroic" play) were modular options? And would it be possible to make them modular options without artificially capping levels so that those wishing to continue a "Classic" adventurer-style campaign could do so beyond the first 5-10 levels?

Let's start with the basic idea of tiers as explicated by 4E. You have a heroic tier which represents "classic" D&D: fighting orcs and ogres, dungeoncrawls, regional threats, etc. Then you have paragon tier in which the PCs become true heroes, fighting dragons and drow, becoming "names" in the larger world, even venturing beyond the world into the planes. Finally you have epic tier in which the PCs are not just heroes but legends - bordering into demigodhood.

One complaint of 4E--and one that I share--is that even heroic tier starts out too, well, heroic. There is no room for playing the blacksmith's apprentice who picks up his hammer to defend the village from an orc invasion, or an apprentice mage firing her first awkward magic missile, or an adolescent beggar stealing the wrong jewel from the wrong merchant.

So the question came to me: can tiers be optional? What if paragon and epic tier were modular options that could be added to (or not) a classic heroic campaign, yet without capping heroic levels?

When I first started playing with this idea in this post, I wrote up a system for tiers as modular options. But then I realized something: tiers aren't necessary. Not only are they not necessary, but they add a level of abstraction that potentially obfuscates what we're really looking at, which is optional power increases at higher levels.

So this is what I came up with--and forgive me if someone's already played with this idea, but its utter simplicity and flexibility is, imo, a perfect fit for what we believe 5E to be:

There are no tiers but there are (something akin to) Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, which are modular options at higher levels.

In other words, the default play style is what could be described as "Adventurer" play, reminiscent of early forms of D&D. A 20th level Classic character would still be powerful, but would look more like Conan or Aragorn than a wuxia martial arts master. In other words, one could advance indefinitely but never become an Exalted-style superhero, unless a game group wants to go that route. This allows the gratification of leveling up for everyone, even folks who don't want epic-style play.

At some point, say 11th level, a DM can offer the option to take a Paragon Path, which would include greater powers and a more heroic style of play. Further down the line, say at 21st level, Epic Destinies would become an option; even further, say at 31st level, something like "Immortal Ascensions" would be possible.

In this approach there is simply no need for tiers, but nothing is lost either. Theoretically these options could become available whenever the DM and/or game group wants them to be. Let's say a group doesn't want to introduce Paragon Paths at all and prefers a classic "adventurer-style" campaign. But then let's say at about 13th or 14th level they get bored and want to spruce things up; they could then take Paragon Paths and become more akin to truly heroic characters. Epic Destinies would become options further on.

So, in summary: Open-ended levels for classic game play, with advancement and/or power increase slowing down at higher levels. No tiers, but Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, and even Immortal Ascensions as modular options.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's not to like here? It seems that this approach truly accomplishes the best of both worlds: offering open-ended non-epic advancement, but also allowing for superheroic high level play. Or, to put it another way: Two rocs + one crossbow bolt = two dead birds.

 

[whydirt]

What does a L20 adventurer tier spellcaster look like?

 

[Minigiant]

Modular Epic... maybe I though stand that.

Modular Paragon? NO.

Well it depends...

Can a adventurer tier fighter go one of one with a hill giant at any point?

 

[KesselZero]

I like this idea quite a lot, since I dream of a campaign that walks the tightrope between gaining levels and loot (which makes me feel all tingly) and staying gritty and lethal (which is my preferred aesthetic and playstyle). I would even expand it to say that there would be multiple tier modules that can be applied to the game at various level bands. For example, a Paragon Path module could be applied at any point from levels 11-20, but you could also apply a Tougher Heroes module from levels 1-11, a Castles and Keeps module from levels 5-25, a Martial Superpowers module from levels 15-25, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum WotC makes mad bucks! Really I think what I'm getting at with this is that rules modules shouldn't just be a "Hoom humm I'm starting a new campaign, however shall I play it" decision. Various mods should be addable throughout the life of the campaign to increase flexibilty and model various situations that could arise at levels of play depending on the desires of the individual table. Heck, you could play twenty levels of grim 'n' gritty Conan adventures and then suddenly have the gods name the PCs as their heirs, giving them an 800% power boost as they leave the mortal world behind and go about punching hydras to death and kicking elementals through holes in reality.

As for what a 20th-level Adventurer (or Basic, or, dare I say it, Core?) wizard would look like, I'd guess it to follow the mechanic suggested as a possibility in some blog post or seminar by a designer somewhere-- spells don't scale with level (fireball is 5d6, not Xd6) and slots are limited, so higher-level spells replace lower-level ones to a certain degree. In addition, perhaps the fancy stuff like flight, teleportation, time effects, planar jumps, etc. etc. are part of the add-on mods, so an Adventurer wizard gets more powerful blasty stuff and defensey stuff.

 

[Mercurius]

What does a L20 adventurer tier spellcaster look like?

Good question. First of all, this idea is fresh so I haven't thought into every nook and cranny and it obviously needs fleshing out a bit. I'm imagining "Adventurer tier" (which is a misnomer, because there would be no tiers per se) as being similar to AD&D, with Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies adding 3E/4E flare. I imagine that a 20th level "Adventurer" spellcaster would still be quite powerful - able to cast 9th level spells and such, but would also be more vulnerable; HP advancement would slow down after 10th level or so, and perhaps ability score increases, skill increases, feats etc would all slow or stop.

A Paragon Path might involve extra HP, further ability score advancement, and feats, as well as some kind of powers. A Paragon character would both be more powerful and more resilient than a normal "Adventurer tier" character, with more HP and higher defenses.

 

[Mercurius]

Modular Epic... maybe I though stand that.

Modular Paragon? NO.

Well it depends...

Can a adventurer tier fighter go one of one with a hill giant at any point?

Sure, why not? A "Adventurer tier" (or core, really) fighter would be rather similar to a fighter in any version of D&D prior to 4E - there just wouldn't be "powers". A Paragon Path might add something akin to a powers.

So, for instance, let's say a core 15th level fighter faces off with a hill giant. They could still defeat that hill giant, but it would be the old-fashioned way: through guile, quickness, skill and strength. A Paragon fighter, on the other hand, might have something akin to 4E powers and be able to do wuxia-esque combat moves.

Again, think Conan vs. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

 

[MoonSong]

Perhaps a 20th level adventurer wizard can cast 9th level spells as normal, scaling damage but with level caps as they were in 3e (Magic Missile max 5, fireball max 10d6, etc.) A paragon wizard of the same level has more slots (and HP, and to hit and AC) and has a higher level cap (Magic Missiles max 7, fireball max 15d6), an epic destiny one has even more slots and higher caps or no caps at all.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

It's probably a terrible abuse of the term and concept "multi-classing", but I wonder if you could do this as a form of multi-classing to give more fine control?

Say that normal multiclassing (within "adventurer tier") works like 3E, 4E, or some other variant. Then "tier" multiclassing works somewhat similar to the AD&D multiclassing. A character can progress as "adventurer" wizard, "paragon" wizard", and "epic" wizard concurrently, getting levels in each one. The big difference, of course, is that what you get from paragon and epic levels is not a difference in kind, not degree. And thus you need not progress in each in lock step (and normally would not).

So you can be a wizard 5, or a wizard 5/1, or a wizard 5/2/2, or even in some wacky campaigns a wizard 1/3/5. That last one is a "starting" character with all kinds of epic destiny already built in, probably child of a god or the like. And of course, since most of the straight math is built into the adventurer tier, you can play with just that, if you want.

If you are playing quite happily with adventurer tier up to 12th or 13th level, and now decide to add on paragon abilities, you can start those at 1st for a slow growth, tack on several at once for a big bang, or however you want to do it.

Also note that despite what my examples may imply, there is no inherent need for other tiers to have the same number of levels as the adventurer tier. Each level of "epic" might cost an immense amount of XP, but have only five levels that you could get.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I proposed a very similar system a while back, and it was also received rather well.

As I mentioned later in that thread, these epic or legendary classes could be tied to the same mechanism that tracks power gained by magic items, giving a great amount of flexibility to the design. (I'm assuming such a system exists to removed assumed wealth and magic.)

For example, let's say that a +3 sword, +2 armor, and a a couple wondrous items combined is equal to two levels, making a Level 6 Fighter the equivalent of a Level 8 Fighter.

Then let's also say that being the chosen avatar of a god is a +2 epic destiny.

Now, the DM can either grant everyone both magic items and an epic destiny, and thus have an epic campaign, or he can give one player the epic destiny and the other magic items and have them be balanced.

Moreover, it could mean that some epic campaigns are played at +2 Levels, and others are played at +4, depending on the mood of the group.

 

[KidSnide]

So the question came to me: can tiers be optional? What if paragon and epic tier were modular options that could be added to (or not) a classic heroic campaign, yet without capping heroic levels?

There are no tiers but there are (something akin to) Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, which are modular options at higher levels.

In other words, the default play style is what could be described as "Adventurer" play, reminiscent of early forms of D&D. A 20th level Classic character would still be powerful, but would look more like Conan or Aragorn than a wuxia martial arts master. In other words, one could advance indefinitely but never become an Exalted-style superhero, unless a game group wants to go that route. This allows the gratification of leveling up for everyone, even folks who don't want epic-style play.

Let me make sure I understand what you're proposing. This is what I think you're proposing:

Heroic, non-wuxia basic D&D continues up to level 20 (or whatever). PCs can continue as long as they want without martial characters being able to jump chasms. (And maybe spells become more difficult and dangerous to cast in order to preserve caster / non-caster balance.

Whenever is appropriate to the campaign, characters could take "paragon paths" that provide, effectively, another "pillar" of character creation. PCs continue advancing in their class(es), but they also start getting abilities from the paragon path. These abilities are designed to give PCs the sorts of abilities that allow a more wuxia-style game.

Likewise, characters could also gain epic destinies (again at whatever level is appropriate for the campaign) that grant the sorts of abilities that are appropriate for characters approaching immortality.​

If that's what you're suggesting, it sounds like a terrific idea to me.

Presumably, the DMG would include some sort of level adjustment so DMs could figure out how 12th level characters with 6 "paragon" levels compare to 12th level characters with only heroic abilities. I should also note that a different module could provide "Kingmaker" levels where characters can abilities appropriate for kingdom management, mass combat and realm-affecting magic.

-KS