D&D 5E A Wizard's Guide to Fighting


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Adb0782

Explorer
This is a great job,
the comparison seem work perfect and calculation is very accurate, the guide is nice for all the sections you put in it and its certanly a kind of character i would play, as im between that people that love the melee of BS.

What i dont understand honestly is why sprit shroud over shadow Blade. Assuming you can use Booming Blade and SB on the same turn (with 2 swords or simply following this tweet from Jeremy Crawford that seem totally allowing the use of BB even directly on the SB, at least RAI for sure, RAW im not totally sure but seem it work anyway, as "it counts as a simple melee weapon" refer already to everything) the damage looks better with a SB and you can even save highter spell slots, and while the speed reduction and the "no regain hp" is nice, you lost advantage in dim light that is better, especially if you often go in dungeons and still more as you want elven accuracy as feat.

Also i see, at least in my opinion, too many spells with concentration, while you dumped things like counterspel, synaptic static, steel wind strike, crown of stars (that give you a very nice use of your bonus action, and if you can apply Booming blade to SB directly fir sure its better than an offhand attack)) and soul cage that dont require it. I think you did it because with your INT you not gonna use that spells so much (even, for exemple, animate death or create undead for you is for sure better than conjure elemental because again, even elementals are much better than zombies, you ll see that elementals only sacryficing Sb or SS, while animate dead dont require concentration and you can use it even the day before for 3 walking zombie or skeletons shields, as well as, in my opinion, soul cage is certanly better than magic jar, especially for you with hight dex and low int. Magic jar is much more better for someone with hight int and lower dex, as it let you use the DEX, STR and CON of the new body, but it dont give you the WIS, CHA and INT of it, so you cant anyway bump int with it, while you can bump dex, and i anyway would prefer soul cage in both case, but i suppose you were "forced" to get it because you cant use tenser and soul cage together till very late), but at this point, its not better think to maximize INT over DEX? And i mean keeping being a melee focused character. With Triple advantage so often and no -5 penalty to hit for boost damage, i think you gonna hit as well with 16 DEX (or you can reach 18 if you really concern about it), and the 2 damage x hit its just nothing as you roll tons of d8 and just make 2 attacks. What you really lose is +2 AC while not bladesinging (but this get less important later on) and+2 initiative (this hurt a bit), but maximizing INT you bump also your concetration saves, so that after Resilient (con) you probably dont need also warcaster (till +15 to con saves its more than enough for kinda never fail it) and you can make space for other feat (being less tanky than the BS with blur, also mobile dont look so bad, also for trigging BB, but also +2 dex work as well, probabaly alert and lucky too) , plus it make you choose spells without concentration for debuff and great damage in the first turn (Ex: Bladesong + steel wind strike or synaptic static in the first turn, than second turn Bonus action Shadow Blade and full attack, or defensive spell as you feel), dumping many concentration spells that as you ll use often SB or SS would be there just for if one day you really gonna need. Yea, you probably lose a 5% hit chance and 2% pure melee damage if compared with an EK with same feats, but you miss anyway near to never plus you can make some good use (and kinda hight damage) of hight lv spells that require int (and that EK dream to can use one far day), especially in your first turn when you cant bladesong and cast shadow blade at same time, or some other spell can fill the bonus action that are not so busy with BS, also bcs in this character i think its really important to balance both the things he do, melee but also casting and even he ll focus more in melee mostly of time, there are some really powerfull combos in your first round that requires int and that help you a lot with your melee later on, steel wind strike make tons of damage bcs its against up to 5 creatures plus you teleport (if u get a fight with 5 creatures this make more than 150 damage plus you teleport and start Bladesong in the same turn! For me its absolutly a bladesinger spell, probably i consider it THE bladesinger spell), Synaptic static deal good damage to multiple targets plus it debuff them...do something like this while otherwise you have to cast mirror image on yourself and wait next turn for do anything else its for sure more useful, but also more thematic for a bladesinger, at least to my eyes.

I anyway want make sure that this is just an opinion, i didnt make any math about this except about SB being better than SS, so i dont actually know if prioritize int would work better or not on this kind of build, its just a feeling i have for better general sinergies, as im trying to build a similar character, but i thought to prioritize int also for dont need to choose too many concentration spells that fight with SB, and picking anyway spells that im gonna use often and with effectivenes. For concentration i only would choose SB, Hypnotic Pattern that have a good use even out of combat, Polimorph as heal spell for when im low hp and wall of force bcs its too good for think to dump this lol, total 4 spells (ok maybe this is really few :p ), while i see your build got around 18 of it (i think this is too much even for a common wizard, but maybe can be ok for them as they dont need SB or Tenser, so their slots and concentration are more free, but for your character i think it really mean almost never play many of that spells bcs mostly he ll choose tenser or SB for his concentration).

So, what i think is that probably giving up just a bit of effectivenes in melee (we are talking just about +1 damage for hit, +1 initiative and +1 to hit, maybe starting with 8 Str 16 dex, 16 int 10 Wis 8 Cha and 15 con or 16 from whenever you want add resilient (con), and so dumping warcaster for other asi, or you can even dump elven accuracy too and maximize both int and dex if you really feel that 20 dex is needed, but i still prefer 18 dex and triple advantage), you can synegize better with your spells list, and still keep being a character that stay 90% of times in melee having a huge general DPR and a very good melee dpr, howhever your is still a build that i would try and a character that i'd like to play. Bcs on this build, while i see the melee part working very well with everything calculated perfectly, lose something from the spells side that probably can sinergize better with each other making different choices, plus some spell you choosed that i really would totally dump, but that's personal flavour i suppose. :p

PS Normally i dont like Tenser Transformation (even on this build it work better, especially if you cant use booming blade directly on the SB) as you lose shield and absorb elements (also counterspell if you have hight int and if you are the one in your party casting it, this can be a huge problem) and the damage is just same a SB of 5th lv, so also for focus on melee i feel its not so necessary to get Tenser transformation. 50 HP is really nice, better advantage than shadow blade too even you can get it from other source, but the highter lv slot use its really bad (you have only one 6th lv slot for very long) and everything get worst when you read: "you cant cast spells"...maybe can work better at lv 13 when you get simulacrum, but i still prefer SB with my best friends (shield and absorb elements) that never betray me, also bcs with that 6 lv slot i can cast soul cage (6 uses it mean at least one entire fight, so same tenser, as a fight i think normally have 4/5 rounds, or even less, while you have advantage on almost anything you want, not only attacks roll, depending on the situation. If nothing happen you just get your advantage on attack roll at your turn and with your bonus action use the soul cage again, but if you have to roll a save during the turn, for sure you gonna use it on the saving, making it appealing to me more than tenser, plus it have some out of combat uses and anyway SB can cover Tenser dpr, plus you still can cast your reactions...except you found some very good sword, which normally dont happen to me lol, as you should find a shortsword flametongue for exemple, and when the DM put something like this in play its often a long sword for the fighter or paladin, still worst if you get a rapier as proficiency as there are no good magic rapiers, i would not bother with tenser, also because if you find a good sword applying to it you can always add it later on, or find a scroll for copy the spell, for a sort of magic berserking lol, that also thematically would be nice) or true seeing (in some circustances its very useful, but there's no way to be wrong with it). For Fireshield im not sure, as you are supposed to not get hitted, but i think you want use it with tenser transformation so in this case have its good reason, but its anyway other action casting, after the first turn where you have to cast tenser and badesong together, it can work anyway but it make you do nothing for 2 turns, probably its better hit with tenser than cast it, except you find a way for precast it no more than 9 minutes before the fight, good anyway because it dont burn your concentration. Darkness i also dont like it, is concentration plus you can see inside there...but your party no, more usefull with a ranged wizard, not if you want go in melee, or well, less useful for sure and risky. Resilient sphere is not bad but i see many wizard stay there and do nothing bcs of it, double face spell + have concetration. Animate object its a good damage spell, but you use your swords for damage single targets not teaspoons, can be good for protect your group while you are running away but, for the style you want play, i dont see any other reason for cast it and lose tenser or SB. Reverse Gravity have concentration but is much more situational and you can make good use of it when its necessary, so it is ok for me. Invisibility at will ok, its nice...but you can use it anyway once for time, i would push that "unlimited" on misty step. Counterspell with int so low also dont convince me totally, probably better leave it to someone else, or prioritize int, except you are ready to expend always your higher spell slot for it, but once you gonna roll for it, you probably gonna miss kinda often on mid/hight lv spells. Shadow Blade for me its better, but anyway i think you should choose only one between SB and Spirit Shroud. As cantrip i strongly recomend shocking grasp (better with hight int honestly, but even its a spell attack its good also with your low int, as it have advantage if they are wearing metal), for a BS with decent int its for sure better than true strike and blade ward, for you im not sure honestly, as mindsliver also con be useful sometime (but only if you have a decent int, so probably not in your build)
 
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Knighthood

First Post
@aadu this is a fantastic look into Bladesinger, and thank you for doing this, as it has helped me better understand more of what I can do for my current character in a game I'm in.

However, I would like to ask you and others what your thoughts are regarding my character and how best to utilize it.

I went my first two levels as Rogue (for story) and at level 3 went Wizard. The plan is to become a Bladesinger, but because of the dip in Rogue, would it be advantageous to add a more levels into Rogue as well?

Current Build (after racial bonus, additionally my character was rolled live on our stream using the 4d6 roll, dropping lowest and reroll 1)

Race: Half-Elf - Standard but modified for Tasha's to adjust where the stat increases went to (which your guide really helped me set it up this way)
STR: 10
DEX: 19
CON: 15
INT: 17
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

I know many people talk about Bladesinger and Arcane Trickster being a fantastic pair, and I definitely see the benefit of the extra spell slots, but I was considering either Swashbuckler or Thief (also, my party has a fully 100% dedicated Arcane Trickster who stays at range and I'd rather not duplicate). The party members are - Kobold Artificer: Armorer, Dragonborn Paladin: Glory, Tiefling Warlock: Celestial, Dwarf Druid: Moon, and Halfling Rogue: Arcane Trickster.

Even though my CHA has no real perk, Swashbuckler would give me a muted version of the Mobile feat which would allow me to attack and move without provoking AOs, additionally it would allow me more opportunities to land Sneak Attack too.

Thief, on the other hand, gives me some cool mobility options like climbing at normal speed, as well as the bonus action of doing "sleight of hand" (potential for disarming enemies in combat) or "use item" (wand of fireballs as a bonus action?! yes please!). This "could" be hugely beneficial for a few specific circumstances, but no guarantees it could happen.

Curious build concepts:
1. Rogue 4, X Wizard
2. Rogue 7, X Wizard
3. Rogue 8, X Wizard
4. Rogue 2, X Wizard

Additional info: My DM is allowing me to "earn" the Chef feat, since I've been doing a lot of cooking during our game. So this would be a free feat that may be earned outside of the normal ASI, and my plan would be to use the CON bonus to push me to 16.

ASI potentials, in no specific order and would very much appreciate advice: Elven Accuracy, Warcaster, Mobile (If I picked Thief), Fey Touched, Sentinel, Mage Slayer, Lucky, and open to any suggestions.

Aadu and others, I would really love any feedback, as the guide is very comprehensive and I do want to mainly be a Bladesinger, but with the Rogue dip, I want to help boost my potential and benefit for my party as well as have me be a good asset on the front lines. Thank you :)
 
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Asisreo

Patron Badass
While what you say is 100% true, there are flaws in this build which I'd take especially careful consideration to.

Firstly, its expensive. Like, very expensive to stay in melee for so long. Some of your best spells you are using for pure defense hurts your offense and your pure offense hurts your defense.

For example, you've said to dual-wield shortswords in first level to have better damage than the fighter and use shield against a big attack, but both of your hands are occupied and you cannot cast shield. The health at that level is sensitive, too so its even more important.
 

aadu

Villager
Sorry I've been away from this thread for a while but I'm loving the conversation.

First of all, @TheOneGargoyle I absolutely love what you've done with the TTL calculations for survivability. It is hard to factor in how the magic utility a Bladesinger would have in combat into it. Things like summons, misty steps, extra shield casts, etc. I'd choose to play the slightly squishier Bladesinger every time and would bet I would stay alive longer. Still the numbers are very interesting and it's extremely telling how they converge as the game goes longer.

@Adb0782 All your points are very valid and if you can booming blade with shadow blade then it definitely becomes a more attractive option. Seems like most DM's would allow it. As to your other spell recommendations I think they're all great though some of the choices would lead to a character that I wasn't trying to build with this guide. I was truly lazer-focused on making a melee wizard. With that in mind CON always came before INT and spells like synaptic static that use INT saves are always going to come after something like Tenser's. That being said, you really can't go wrong with any of the spells you mention and focusing INT more will work great. I wanted to show you could sacrifice a couple of the super wizardy parts of being a wizard in order to be more effective in melee while still getting all of the versatility and power a wizard provides.

Also I recommend taking counterspell at level 5. It's not dumped at all.

@Knighthood Seems like you have a solid build going. I personally love swashbuckler for the easy way to get sneak attack dice. That being said the spell slots for bladesinger is what I would prioritize the most so either swashbuckler or arcane trickster. I would take warcaster and elven accuracy as both are insanely good.

I do have a not as fleshed out build using hexblade/bard/swashbuckler that's a TON of fun that you should take a look at as well. It does some really interesting things with rogue.


I know that might not be as useful to you now but who knows.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I've been thinking a lot about the new Bladesinger and how to run it effectively in melee.

Well here's a 36 page guide for it

Here's a URL if you want to comment on it.

Become the ultimate spell blade without giving up any spell progression.

I've never written a DnD guide before but I've loved reading some of the guides posted here so I figured I'd contribute as well.
Pretty awesome guide. I love bladesingers and have played three of them, all of the single class characters were straight melee characters and after a few levels they were fearless in combat. That said, I don't necessarily agree with everything in the guide. I think at 1st level you should dump Constitution to 10 and invest in intelligence to 16 (or 17 if you plan an int half feat at 4th). The AC bonus is worth more than the hp bonus you will get out of constitution and once you get song of defense you will have plenty of hps. If you put your points in intelligence you won't get hit enough to worry much about concentration and if you are in bladesong you get an intelligence bonus to the concentration roll anyway, if you are really worried get warcaster early for the advantage. Once you get to around 12th level you will be getting hit occasionally even in bladesong and AOE spells will start to really hurt even with absorb elements, but by that point you will have song of defense.

In my experience bladesingers are at their best when they focus on defense and concentration spells like shadowblade and spirit shroud should not be go-to spells. Not saying you should not take them or have them prepared or use them in the right circumstance, but that is not the best "base package" for most encounters IMO. Those spells increase damage but they mean you can't use blur or protection from evil and good and these should be your go-to concentration spells to give enemies disadvantage on their attacks (certain enemies in the case of PEG). The combination of very high AC and disadvantage is devastating. Aside from making it very hard to hit it also reduces the chance of a crit from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400. If you focus on dexterity and intelligence and then cast one of these spells early in tough battles you will very rarely get hit by any foe from 3rd to 12th level or so. You will go entire levels without taking a hit in melee, even though you are in melee every single battle. I think that being nearly unhittable beats the extra damage as a general rule (and beats the extra hps from buffing constitution). I would say blur and PEG are both "mandatory". Mirror image is ok at low levels (although inferior to blur and PEG), but at high levels it is a wasted action to cast it, as the images will not usually last a round in melee.

On potential feats I would add fey touched and shadow touched, both because they are a half feat (boost to intelligence) and because they give you free prepared spells and free castings and the spells work well with this build. I would also consider sentinel because one of the problems is when enemies can't hit you the DM will often try to have them go around you and hit someone else, sentinel prevents that for at least one enemy at a time. All three of these, plus everything else you include on your list would be better than resilient constitution or tough IMO.
 
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