[ABJURATION] Killing the Sacred Cows

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think you just answered why I would have removed it, too. It's another flavor of "break bad mojo", in my opinion. In the old days, Dispel magic damn near worked on everything; why not again, just with different requirements depending on the severity of the mojo?

There's something to be said for a counterspell that is restritcted to, and more powerful, when applied to a specific type of spell.

 

[GlassJaw]

I haven't voted yet but after going through the spell list in the poll, I am shocked at how many spells I would cut or are would roll into another spell effect.

I also found myself using the criteria of whether I've ever seen a player take or cast that spell. I was shocked at how many spells just don't get used at the table.

I've talked to Wulf about this before and I'm defininitely in favor of making spells/spell effects into talent chains (heck, I would make every ability in the game, magical or not, into talent chains).

If a caster knows Protection from <alignment>, why couldn't he use more "power" to increase its range? Why should it be treated as a completely different spell?

 

[GlassJaw]

Another idea that I thought of while I was scanning the list:

If the consensus is that there are redundant spell effects, the decision would have to be how to group them. I don't think this decision is that cut and dry either.

For example, would you group spells by "intent" or by "type". Let me define what I mean:

Intent - what are you trying to do? What effect are you trying to creater? Your intent could be protection or defense. Spells in the protection tree could be anything from protection from evil to resist energy to stoneskin.

Type - Instead of being grouped by intent or effect, spells are grouped by what they actually are: elemental, force, alignment, etc (there still may be some overlap in intent however (ex. dispel or divination spells).) For example, the Fire Type would include spells like Fireball, Fire Trap, and Resist Energy (fire).

You might even be able to let the player choose their own spell groupings. That way you could have elemental specialists as well as spell school specialists or another concept the player may have.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm know I'm violating forum etiquette but I'm going to post one more time.

As of right now, I'm not going to vote in the poll. The more I think about it, the more I come up with reasons to keep or kill every spell on the list.

I think a better poll or discussion is to determine what different spell effects/types/groupings exist. Once you have that, you can start plugging spells into the different categories. It's also entirely possibly for spells to exist in multiple categories.

Here's what I mean:

Fire: fireball, scorching ray, fire trap, resist energy (fire)
Protection: resist energy, shield, protection from <alignment>, protection from arrows
Knowledge: detection spells, divination, scrying, identify
Movement: fly, levitation, dimension door, teleport, spider climb?
Air: fly, levitate, fog cloud (water?), gust of wind
Traps: arcane lock, fire trap, glyph of warding

 

[Graf]

I was voting based on: giving a player this sort of choice isn't fun.
Since most Abjuration spells do something specific and useful it's a hard area to get rid of stuff from.

Example: You can add Remove Curse into Dispel Magic but what does that really do for you? Most PCs aren't preparing the spell unless someone is cursed. So they don't normally wander around with it prepared.
If you do go that route then curses (like Lycanthropy) just get easier to get rid of. That takes a tool out of the DM's story toolbox.

Resistance just needs to go. So (imho) do hold portal (because you -can- take it, but it's so variably useful that you're always wishing you had some other spell prepared). Stuff like that.

The trap spells are underpowered and useless for pcs, but they provide a degree of story utility so I don't see them as being troublesome. And making them more powerful would be like giving people grenades... which isn't in the spirit of most DnD games anyway.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think a better poll or discussion is to determine what different spell effects/types/groupings exist. Once you have that, you can start plugging spells into the different categories. It's also entirely possibly for spells to exist in multiple categories.

I've already done this groundwork. What this poll tells me is what spells can't be folded into larger umbrellas because of their 'sacred' status; and of course if there are any groupings I have overlooked.

If the poll fails to return this useful information, it's because you guys are too willing to tinker.

I have to say I am shocked at the hate for Resistance. As a 0-level abjuration spell-- especially in a design where 0-level spells might be cast for free-- I think it's useful. It's certainly "just right" in terms of power and effect, in my opinion.

EDIT: Even more surprising is the love for Alarm. This is a perfect example of a spell that doesn't fit neatly into any category (it's probably a relative of Glyph of Warding, but Monte's Minor Ward is vastly superior, imo), and which has a very specific use (cast at the end of the adventuring day, when no more excitement is to be had...).

 

[GlassJaw]

What this poll tells me is what spells can't be folded into larger umbrellas because of their 'sacred' status; and of course if there are any groupings I have overlooked.

Sacredness shouldn't get in the way of good game design IMO.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Sacredness shouldn't get in the way of good game design IMO.

Of course it should. The brand has value; and a significant (although as yet indeterminate) portion of brand value and brand awareness is built solidly on several sacred cows.

The trick is to determine how far you can flex it.

But there is a limit.

 

[Henry]

EDIT: Even more surprising is the love for Alarm. This is a perfect example of a spell that doesn't fit neatly into any category (it's probably a relative of Glyph of Warding, but Monte's Minor Ward is vastly superior, imo), and which has a very specific use (cast at the end of the adventuring day, when no more excitement is to be had...).

I kept Alarm precisely BECAUSE there is no other to fold it into - maybe glyph of warding, but it's not a clear lineage. I'd almost fold it into a general "guards and wards" type of spell, where it was the very first power level of the incantation you got - later goes up to obfuscations (illusions) to guard with, to minor damage, all the way to the full "forbiddance/guards and wards" kind of package.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I kept Alarm precisely BECAUSE there is no other to fold it into - maybe glyph of warding, but it's not a clear lineage. I'd almost fold it into a general "guards and wards" type of spell, where it was the very first power level of the incantation you got - later goes up to obfuscations (illusions) to guard with, to minor damage, all the way to the full "forbiddance/guards and wards" kind of package.

I like Abjuration spells that trigger lesser effects from other schools (some damage from Evocation, visual or auditory glamer from Illusion, curses from Necromancy, etc.).

It's the "magical trap" aspect that makes it an Abjuration; the only "level limiting" effect is how powerful the trap is.

So yes-- Alarm, Glyph of Warding, Explosive Runes: all variations on the theme.