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About Ars Magica editions...

Warehouse23

First Post
Glassjaw's thread about non-HP, non-level systems piqued my already extant interest about Ars Magica. It seems Atlas Games just released a 5th edition of Ars Magica. There was no big stink (ahem, SR4), no lamenting the breaking of the bank (ahem, 3.5e). In fact, I didn't even know there was an edition change until I started looking for a cheap copy of the core rules.

So what's the scoop on the game with the "best magic system of all time"? How does 5th edition stand up to fourth or third? Does it make sense to pick up a copy of the 5th ed rules, or pick the "best" incarnation of the rules and learn them?
 

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TheAuldGrump

First Post
Heh, I liked 4th so much that even though I own two print copies I downloaded the free one! That is the one I use while on my computer, cheerfully typing away. :)

The Auld Grump, PDF addict.
 


Crothian

First Post
the fifth edition book, the new one, is realyl nice looking. I really like the setting but still have yet to actually play the game.
 

Woas

First Post
Crothian said:
the fifth edition book, the new one, is realyl nice looking. I really like the setting but still have yet to actually play the game.

Same here. I really love the setting, but I think when I mention the covenant/character pool system people for some reason get turned off by this. They say the would rather just play one character anyway... Maybe someday though.

As for the topic, I have yet to read through 5th Ed. Ars Magica so I can't be of help there. However I'd like to ask a more specifc question going along with the topic: I remember reading on a forum while 5th Ed was being worked on that the covenant system was getting a lot of work done on it. Does anyone have any info to what changed with the covenant system?
 

Laslo Tremaine

Explorer
The 5th edition makes a couple fairly serious changes.

• Character generation has been tweaked a bit to be more consistant with experience progression in play, and is an improvement in my view.

• The effect of The Gift (the abilty to do magic) on mundanes has been clarified and expanded. It used to be that a gifted individual would have a -3 penalty on all social interactions with mundanes. The idea being that the ability to do magic made the magus inherently creepy. In the 5th edition they have made it so that The Gift is so unnerving to mundanes as to make casual interaction with strangers virtually impossible. This is somewhat of a good thing since it makes companion characters more valuable, but a number of people have problems with this change.

• Spells have been slightly tweaked to be more internally consistent. Another improvement.

• Spell resistance and penetration has been radically altered. It used to be that you would compare your casting total to the spell resistance total and if the casting total was higher the spell would effect the target. The upshot of this is that a more powerful caster would prevail over a weaker caster. That is no longer the case. Now you first compare the difference between the casting total and the level of the spell being cast. This difference is compared to the resistance total, and if the difference is greater, the spell penetrates. The upshot to this is that weaker spells cast by more experience magi, have a greater chance of penetrating... I think that I do not like this new method and we may go back to the previous way of doing it.

• Combat has been radically changed (as is traditional for pretty much every edition) and is kinda odd (mainly the way damage is handled). We've been playing 5th edition for three sessions now, and still don't fully understand it.


Those are the main changes in the 5th edition that I can think of off the top of my head.
 

Yair

Community Supporter
I haven't played 5th edition, but I have read it. Laslo Tremaine pretty much summed up the changes, I'd just like to add a few points:

ArM5 has a far more consistent world, and it looks like its support will be more cohesive. If such things seem valuable to you, especially if you want your PCs to advance at a rate that is consistent with the rest of the world and have a power level that allows reasonable interactions with it, I recommend going to 5. That seems to be its main improvement.

ArM5 is, annoyingly, a bit incomplete. Make sure to download the mundane bestiary if you're going to have a Bjornaer (download the errata too while you're at it), and the corrected character sheet. And you would need to invent statistics for a crossbow, should you need some.

I really liked the magic system in Ars Magica 3rd Edition. It was Verb (skill)+Noun (skill)+roll=spell level, and that was that. In the 4th Edition, a system for adjucating spell levels was added. In the 5th Edition, this system was extended and complicated further, to the point that now I am no longer certain just how great it is. The alterable base-size-by-Art, specific guidelines, and irregular exceptions make for a somewhat barouque system that can really get complicated. (The new system is simpler in some ways than 4th Edition, but more complicated in others.)

It is generally agreed that the 4th Edition combat rules were abysmal. I have no experience with 5th, but I would strongly recommend altering at least some of them if you decide to stay with the free 4th edition.

At any rate, Ars Magica is a great game but it's hard to get an ArM game going. Have fun!

Yair

P.S, ArM5 seems to be accepted gladly by the ArM community on the Ars Magica email list, which tends to include many members who say such things as "the One True Edition is 2nd Edition!", so that's saying something. I guess it says 5th edition is seen as an improvement over 4th. [Of coure, no one is actually PLAYING 2nd edition... it's kind of like Diaglo here - a few old... erg... venerable members of the community. Yeah, that's it.]
 
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Laslo Tremaine

Explorer
The covenant/multi-character/troupe style of play is one of my favorite features of Ars Magica!

We have three players who are completely new to Ars in our saga. All of them have commented on how much the like this system after having actually gotten a chance to use it in play.

For those who don't know. In Ars Magica it is assumed that you will be making a minimum of four different characters.

The first character that you make is the Covenant. This is the base locale that all of the other characters will be working from. This can be the traditional wizards tower off in the wilderness or could be a townhouse in a city, or a series of caves, etc, etc. All of the players get together at the begining of the saga and have a hand in creating the Covenant.

The next character is the Magus/Maga. This is often thought of as the player's main character, and is the most powerful or versitile character that the player will have.

The player then creates a Companion. This usually a mundane but skilled character that is associated with the Covenant (not the player's Magus). Examples include troubadors, rogues, huntsmen, knights, merchants, priests, etc. It can also include fae, and minor magic workers like old wise-woman, or prophets.

Lastly the player makes a number of Grogs. These are the spear-carriers of the saga. Men-at-arms, servants, artisans, etc. All Magi have a shield-grog that protects them in case of battle, and then you can have any number of others (depending on how things went during covenant creation). The grogs are held in common amoungst all of the players, and are made in an intentionally 2 dimensional manner, so that they are easy for multiple people to roleplay.

The great thing about this system is that it allows you to split up the party without having any of the players feeling left out.

For example, a common session will go something like this:

A problem occurs and the covenant must deal with it. The Magi convene a council to decide what will be done. Here everyone will play their Magi characters and come to a consensus on how the problem will be dealt with and who will take care of it. It is decided that Cassius the Flambeau magus will be the one to lead the group that will deal with the problem. William the woodsman goes to scout the way, Lady Janice the scholar wants to study the problem, and Magda the cut-purse goes in case things get sticky. In addition they take four grogs as muscle. Now you can cut scene between what is happening with the adventuring party and any addtional situations that might crop up back at the covenant. Also, if the companions all decide to go into town and the magus decides to stay away (since his Gift might cause problems) the grogs can stay with him and as the story focuses on one group or the other, the players all still have a character to play.

It sometimes takes people a bit of playing to get into this system, but it is much more flexible and allows for many more styles of storytelling than the standard one player, one character system.
---


Speaking of Covenant creation... In the fifth edition they made covenants a bit more like actual characters. You have a number of base stats (Library, Spells, Vis, Enchanted Items and Specialists) that are bought with a pool of points that are determined according to the age of the Covenant. Then you have a set of Boons and Hooks that work much like Virtues and Flaws for rounding out the covenant. It's pretty simple, but does the job. I would still like to see something like the Covenants book from 2nd edition, but this will do for now.
 
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Yair

Community Supporter
Laslo Tremaine said:
I would still like to see something like the Covenants book from 2nd edition, but this will do for now.
The 5th edition's covenant book is in playtest, so I suppose it will come out... in a year or so ?!!
 

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