About initiative

[Nail]

Give me rule that says, that opening the door must be surprise round action.

Determining Awareness
....
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. .....

Please answer the following questions:

If the door is closed, are the opponents aware of the PCs?

A: Not yet......

If the door is kicked open, are the opponents aware of the PCs?

A: They are now!

If you chose to start combat after the door is open, then no one is surprised, and therefore no one gets a surprise round. I'm kinda thinkin' you'll chose the first possibility: Combat starts just as the door is about to be burst open.

 

[irdeggman]

KD,

I think you are misunderstanding what post-combat means.

"post" means "after" so when you are talking about post-combat what you are saying is "after combat".

I believe what you mean to say is either "pre-combat" (which means before combat) or "outside of combat". I don't think you mean to use the term post-combat the way you have been.

 

[Jacen]

Kicking in the door and not opening it slowly (the OP had the door being kicked in) would most definitely negate having to perform any checks since the PCs are not trying to be quiet anymore. So once the door is open everyone is aware of everyone else. At that moment any surprise ends and initiative is rolled. But if the PCs had readied actions then those actions go off before the combat round starts (part of the definition of a ready action).

Now one of the options KD laid out was that in the "surprise round" the PCs who went before the the fighter who kicked open the door were delaying or readying actions for when the door was opened.

You explaining it does make some sense. Much more than "you are not following the rules".

If the door was not opened in the suprise round then the PCs can not ready actions (since they don't have a surprise round action that they can use to do it).

And now there is a paradox. They did something that they couldn't do. If it was agreed that the one with smallest initiative kicks the door in and he doesn't then those readied actions couldn't be done.

Anyway that would make sense with one change. Too bad that this is not RAW. Do not think when surprise round starts. Think when it ends. If one thinks that when combat really starts the earlier 3 sec part was an surprise round. If planned that could have ben used. if not then surprise was wasted. But like I told it is not RAW. "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised." For me the kicking in the door starts the combat. If either side doesn't know about each other then nothing. If the others did they get an surprise round. More specificly - when the strong fighter kicks time stoprs and combat started. If door didn't open other side knows about the enemy and rolls for initiative.

So I could live with how you exlplain and I put it to "my rules" and agree in its logic, but yet it is not RAW.

And this does follow real life. Being surprised in real life is different than being sruprised in D&D. Suprised in D&D has a very specific mechanic involved.

In RL (using D&D mechanics) the door gets kicked in. Those inside are "surprised" by the sound but now get to roll initiative. Those entering the room have alreeady gotten their weapons ready (readied actions, etc.). Now those in the room must use precious actions to get their equipment ready in order to use it while those entering can save those actions to move and fight (or take full attacks with ranged weapons) - that those in the room can not do.

Well I could disagree on this, but because of D&D:s 6 sec rounds that makes some sense with initiative. Even everything happens on same 6 sec slots but intiative divides that to tens of timeslots. In RL surprise is time it takes one to understand what happened and to react to that. You can draw the weapon while moving, so move and fight works too.

 

[Nail]

...Do not think when surprise round starts. Think when it ends...

??

It ends after everyone allowed to act in the surprise round gets a standard action.

Done.

 

[Jacen]

Please answer the following questions:

If the door is closed, are the opponents aware of the PCs?

A: Not yet......

If the door is kicked open, are the opponents aware of the PCs?

A: They are now!

If you chose to start combat after the door is open, then no one is surprised, and therefore no one gets a surprise round. I'm kinda thinkin' you'll chose the first possibility: Combat starts just as the door is about to be burst open.

When door is closed NPCs aren't aware. When the door is opened normaly they might be. After the door is kicked in they definetly are aware of PC, but the combat starts when the door gets kicked. I start the combat when there is no going back. After the action that makes combat to happen. And "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."

 

[Nail]

After the door is kicked in they definetly are aware of PC, but the combat starts when the door gets kicked.

Great.

If you chose to do it this way, the combatants are aware. No surprise round.

Done.

 

[Jacen]

??

It ends after everyone allowed to act in the surprise round gets a standard action.

Done.

Sigh. When surprise round starts? It starts when combat starts. When does it end? After the combat started and everyone who were aware have done their actions. Yes, but after that combat started. What I meand is that surprise round ends when combat starts. When combat starts the preseding 3 secs were surprise round.

Otherwise it might be that there is surprise round and the player who everyone were waiting to open door does nothing. one can do nothing in his turn. So now what. Well cambatants start to do their regular rounds and act on their initiative. And still enemy is not aware of them. So did the combat start or not? If not then there could not be surprise round and PCs could not ready an action. If there were PC can now open the door and everyone has full round action. So either DM need to change the start of combat or give PCs more actions. That more benefits over the surpriseround is not sensible and so is not taking back. Unless you think backwards. So Combat started and they were surprised, so those were their actions.

 

[Nail]

You are making this too complicated. The DM decides when combat starts. The only question he needs to answer is: "Are the combatants aware?"

That's it.

In the example you gave, that means:

#1) Door is closed. Combat starts as soon as the PCs kick in the door. Those breaking in get a surprise round, which will include the "break in the door" action.

#2) Door is open. Combat starts without a surprise round, as everyone is aware of everyone else.

Chose.

 

[Jacen]

Great.

If you chose to do it this way, the combatants are aware. No surprise round.

"When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised."
"If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."
Doing nothing is allowed. Like is readying an action and delaying. So how long do we wait if the NPCs won't open the door. Do we wait for 10, 20 or 100 rounds in combat if players are just delaying and the NPCs doesn't open the door?

 

[Nail]

If the opponents on the other side of the closed door continue to not notice the PCs lurking just outside?

As long as the PC's patience lasts.