About initiative

[Jacen]

This is not a rules answer.

like you haven't give any rule answers what to do in those problems I pointed to you.

There are two requirements here. The players decide to surprise and the DM allows for surprise. The players do not get to decide on their own.

They aren't. That opening the door can be a failure. And besided that is not an combat action because there is no combat - yet.

It just comes down to:

1) Is the door opened before initiatives are rolled?

Yes. Initiative is rolled on start of combat.

a) Yes. Combat has not yet started. NPCs get checks to see if they notice the door being open (if it is opened fast, the DC should be low; if slow, the DC should be higher).

If PCs do nothing on surprise round after kicking in the door NPC will notice them because of the noise.

b) No. Combat has started. In order to open the door, the PCs have to use up a Standard Action.

Well they don't use their surprise to open the door, but draw weapons. So now starts the regular combat rounds. Roll intiative for everyone in combat and start doing full round actions. Delay, ready an action and open the door. You haven't told me why that wouldn't be allowed acording the rules. If it allowed then now PCs have full round actions on their use. Wizard readies an action to cast when fighter closes the door. Fighter opens the door as standard action and closes as move action. Wizard cast in the room and door is closed. All acording the rules.

c) Yes. Combat has not yet started. NPCs do not get checks to see if they notice the door being open because of DM fiat (rule zero).

The rules in the DMG (that I quoted earlier) suggest that DMs give characters a chance (i.e. checks) to notice stuff like this. Your solution c) here ignores that suggestion in the DMG.

And clarifying example suggest that you can open the door. And you just ignore it because that makes no sense to you. For me it does make sense and it fits nicely.

The reason a) is more RAW correct than c) is due to the fact that combat has not yet started. Bottom line.

If combat has not yet started, there is no rules reason for not giving the NPCs a check, but there is a rules reason to do so.

Well the rule reasons don't say they have to be given a check. It says "Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks." So it is up to DM to choose as much in your case and my case. At least by RAW. And bacause I give a cahange to notice things before the openign of the door I even follow both of the suggestion. Allowing the checks and following the example. Response is only that I am incosistent. even that I am doing it by RAW.

Anyway RPGs are supposed to be fun. That is the reason for playing them - or should be. This is not and is quite one sided. I am answering all the example (maybe not the way you like) but you don't answer to any of mine. You just point that one thing in my way and ignore any that I point to you with "it is not problem for all DMs". Every time every example I give to you that shows how PC get benefits from not using their surprise you ignore it. Only comment is that it is not problem. Well it is but when doing that way PCs gain full round actions instead partial. They do lost flatfooted acording RAW even NPCs are still unaware of PC, but still...

But I think that we are not getting anywhere so there is no reason to continue to this. So this is my last post to this thread. Yes, no, yes, no -threads are even boring to read for other ppl. You continue to do like you do and I like I do.

 

[KarinsDad]

And clarifying example suggest that you can open the door. And you just ignore it because that makes no sense to you. For me it does make sense and it fits nicely.

It's not that it does not make sense. It does not appear to follow the rules stated earlier on the page and it is not consistent with other actions.

ANY action that can alert the NPCs before initiative is rolled should give them a roll.

Cast a spell, open a door, step into view, whatever.

This is consistent.

Taking "open a door" out of this list of noticable actions is not consistent. This has nothing to do with whether your position makes sense. Your position is not consistent with other noticable actions.

If a given action is an exception, it should be listed as an exception in the rules section, that the example section.

 

[irdeggman]

Historically (from my observations) most disagreements over initiative and actions that can (or should) be allowed to happen come about from a couple of issues.


1. D&D combat is very, very abstract. Many disagreements are based on using real world examples and common sense and trying to insert those into the abstract system. Many others are based on attempting to insert more detail into the system that wasn't designed for it. Some come about by making "equivalent amounts of time" for actions and using them. IMO almost all of these end up failing and falling into the "House-rules" category.

2. D&D defines all actions in terms of combat. It does not address how to resolve things outside of combat. What I mean is that action types (move, standard, etc.) are all insestuously defined and revolve around the combat round. It is obvious that things must occur outside of combat, but that system is not defined. Many actions technically could never occur outside of combat (the ready and delay actions are specific ones that are defined by combat rounds).

PHB pg 135

ROUNDS

Combat occurs in rounds. In every round, each combatant gets to do something. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.

PHB pg 138 has even more references to “Combat Rounds”


PHB pg 160

READY

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

DELAY

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.

PHB pg 314

turn: The point in the round at which you take your action(s). On your turn, you may perform one or more actions, as dictated by your current circumstances.

 

[Nail]

Finish the quoted section with the sentence that follows it:...

Zing!