About the myth or fact (?) of needing magical items

[Steverooo]

However, I maintain that characters do not need a grab bag of items. I do not advocate zero items. I just do not think you need a magic shop on every corner to play D&D.

And I'm agreeing with you, if you'll stop arguing with me about what I DIDN'T say long enough to hear it!



About the only things you can buy in "Magic Shops", in my world, are potions, scrolls, spellbooks, material components, and an occasional lower-level items that some other adventurer(s) found, and didn't want.

Methinks you're too busy arguing to tell when folks are agreeing with you...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Methinks you're too busy arguing to tell when folks are agreeing with you...

Quoted so he can't miss it.

 

[boredgremlin]

Or rather watch the casters pick up Tumble and/or show the low magic campaign fighters how damn good AC 30+ (and total concealment and ...) is in melee when they can hardly get beyond 20.

Bye
Thanee

They couldnt get AC 30 without some absurd magic items. It non casters dont have many then niether should casters. Armor and shield spells together only give about AC +7 or 8 off the top of my head. Figure 2 pts more from items and the mage only has 20. Unless he has 18's in both dex and Int. Which point buy should prevent until very high level. Besides whats stopping the warriors from getting tumble? And thier HP's being so much higher make a big difference.

 

[delericho]

They couldnt get AC 30 without some absurd magic items. It non casters dont have many then niether should casters. Armor and shield spells together only give about AC +7 or 8 off the top of my head. Figure 2 pts more from items and the mage only has 20. Unless he has 18's in both dex and Int. Which point buy should prevent until very high level. Besides whats stopping the warriors from getting tumble? And thier HP's being so much higher make a big difference.

Mage Armour: +4 armour bonus
Shield: +4 shield bonus
Alter Self (Troglodyte): +6 natural bonus
Protection from Evil: +2 deflection bonus
Cat's Grace: +2 Dex bonus (effective)

With a base of 10, this gives a total of 28. If the character has a natural dex of 14 or higher, he's at AC 30. Furthermore, those were only the spells that I could think of immediately - I'm sure there are more options that I haven't considered.

The check on fighters getting Tumble is that they really need to use heavy armour to stay competitive (in a low-item game, where they can't easily get really high Dex values). Wizards, of course, have no such problem.

(Oh, and there's no actual reason a Wizard couldn't take the Combat Expertise feat. It's a sub-optimal choice for them, as a rule, but it is a possibility.)

 

[ARandomGod]

There's a third level mage armor spell (In complete arcane I think) that gives +6 instead of +4. Same in every other way as the first level mage armor spell.

 

[Storm Raven]

I have yet to see a Wizard make magic items in 3e. If the Wizard was making all the items he needs, then he would be several levels below the rest of the party.

I, on the other hand, have never seen a wizard who didn't make magic items. In my experience, most have at least one item creation feat other than Scribe Scroll, and use them as often as needed.

 

[boredgremlin]

Mage Armour: +4 armour bonus
Shield: +4 shield bonus
Alter Self (Troglodyte): +6 natural bonus
Protection from Evil: +2 deflection bonus
Cat's Grace: +2 Dex bonus (effective)

With a base of 10, this gives a total of 28. If the character has a natural dex of 14 or higher, he's at AC 30. Furthermore, those were only the spells that I could think of immediately - I'm sure there are more options that I haven't considered.

The check on fighters getting Tumble is that they really need to use heavy armour to stay competitive (in a low-item game, where they can't easily get really high Dex values). Wizards, of course, have no such problem.

(Oh, and there's no actual reason a Wizard couldn't take the Combat Expertise feat. It's a sub-optimal choice for them, as a rule, but it is a possibility.)

Okay if you give the wizard 5 rounds to prepare spells he can have an okay armor class for one fight. Or part of a fight, since cats grace is only 1 round per level, protection from evil only works against evil creatures, and the troglodytes stink is likely to weaken your own comrades as well as having a Dex of 9. Which pretty much destroys the DEX to AC concept for the mage.
Not to mention the whole idea is now based on your wizard only getting in one combat a day. And knowing he will only get in one combat a day. Otherwise all these spells are likely to either go unused because the wizard is saving them for something worse later on, get used up too early and not be available in later fights, or get used one or two at a time over a few combats and not have the comulative affects described in your post above.
The warriors advantage is and allways has been that he is pretty much allways ready to rock and can be a solid average combatant all day long.

 

[Staffan]

Okay if you give the wizard 5 rounds to prepare spells he can have an okay armor class for one fight. Or part of a fight, since cats grace is only 1 round per level, protection from evil only works against evil creatures, and the troglodytes stink is likely to weaken your own comrades as well as having a Dex of 9. Which pretty much destroys the DEX to AC concept for the mage.

Cat's grace lasts for a minute per level, not a round per level. Troglodyte stench is one of the things you don't get with the Alter Self spell. Good point on the Dex thing, though.

Not to mention the whole idea is now based on your wizard only getting in one combat a day.

Alter Self lasts for 10 minutes per level, which is really enough for most dungeoneering purposes (after fighting stuff for an hou most of the party will be pretty low on resources). Mage armor lasts for an hour per level, which is definitely enough for most dungeons. Shield, Protection from Evil, and Cat's Grace are a bit less useful in the long term, though.

 

[Hussar]

The point is, the mage CAN out AC the fighter any time he wants. And, let's not forget, the enemy mage only has to fight the party once. Heck, a stoneskin spell puts most fighters out of commission in a low magic game. That's the point. The mages and clerics get far more powerful than the other classes in a low magic game because they can simply supply their own. A cleric can get all the AC a fighter can get plus still buff. A low magic game heavily favours the spellcasters. That's the point I think is being made here.

 

[ARandomGod]

I, on the other hand, have never seen a wizard who didn't make magic items. In my experience, most have at least one item creation feat other than Scribe Scroll, and use them as often as needed.

At LEAST one. There is no better feat to spend your fifth level bonus wizard feat on than Craft Wonderous Item. It makes almost every single magic item you'll ever want (especially if you're like me and have a predjudice against charged items). Sure, you'll have to buy a couple of rings, and a few rods... but that expense is nothing compared to the saving's you'll get from 1/2 off all your wonderous items. Magic users should be dripping in magical items.

Cat's grace lasts for a minute per level, not a round per level. Troglodyte stench is one of the things you don't get with the Alter Self spell. Good point on the Dex thing, though.

I was under the impression that your physical stats like dex, strength, and con specifically don't change with that spell. I'll have to relook that up now.