About the War Cleric......

[Rossbert]

Anyone else think a dip in a fighting class for Great Weapon style can lead to a fun little burst for a war cleric when they don't want to use a spell?

Especially with a great sword and divine strike.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Anyone else think a dip in a fighting class for Great Weapon style can lead to a fun little burst for a war cleric when they don't want to use a spell?

Especially with a great sword and divine strike.

I did something like that, except it was Sorcerer to get Booming Blade & Green Flame Blade.

 

[CTurbo]

So again, the point of this thread was not to bring the War Cleric up to par with the Fighter in fighting prowess. It's that it's generally lacking in melee even when compared to some of the other domains. All I'm saying is, I think the War Cleric SHOULD be the best domain for melee.

I think part of the problem was the Heavy Armor thing getting passed around too much. I think they dropped the ball there when it was on the design table. War and Life should have been the only two domains to get Heavy Armor Proficiency. Oh well it's too late for that now. I'm not proposing we nerf other domains to make the War Cleric feel special.

But I DO feel like something needs to be done about the terrible War Priest feature. It is literally not useful after level 2 except for the dips from other Martial characters to exploit it, or for the rare GWM War Cleric. Sure the War domain is the best in melee in the first 2 levels except for maybe the Tempest, but after that, all you have going for you is the +10 to an attack twice a day until level 17. Speaking of which, should probably be straight resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage period. Magical or not.

But anyway, the easiest fix is probably to simply move War Priest from the bonus action, and to do so in a way that other classes can't abuse with a quick dip.

 

[CapnZapp]

For those of you who want to give the War Priest ability a nudge up in power, allow it to refresh usage after a short rest.

But anyway, the easiest fix is probably to simply move War Priest from the bonus action, and to do so in a way that other classes can't abuse with a quick dip.

Again, the problem is that the feature expects you to take the Attack action.

Make it a rider on the Cast Spell action, and you get design that works with the class instead of against it.

It would also provide an elegant counterpart to the "other" War Priest, the Paladin.

Paladins are designed around the Attack action, using spells (spell slots anyway) to augment that action (=smiting).

So make War Cleric design revolve around the Cast Spell action, using weaponry to augment that action (=bonus attack).

 

[CTurbo]

Sometimes taking the attack action is a viable option for any character that is designed to be in or near melee. That's why Divine Strike exists.

I do like the idea of being able to make a weapon attack after casting a spell, but it's almost too good unless it's granted at higher levels, or extremely limited like maybe on the first round of each encounter. That way you can get your big concentration spell of the day up and running and still attack. That's a good feature right there, but it is enough?

Another option would be to keep War Priest a bonus action early on and then have it upgraded at a higher level to part of the attack action for those times when you do just really need to hit something with your hammer.

Like somebody said, if the Bard, Warlock, and even the Wizard can get a second attack as a part of the attack action, why can't a Cleric? Would it REALLY break things to allow 1 domain to get a second attack? Even if it's limited to Wis mod per rest? I don't think so.

I do feel my idea of War Priest going to your reaction instead of bonus action is too strong.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So again, the point of this thread was not to bring the War Cleric up to par with the Fighter in fighting prowess. It's that it's generally lacking in melee even when compared to some of the other domains. All I'm saying is, I think the War Cleric SHOULD be the best domain for melee.

Again I say War =/= melee. The Longbow was the backbone of the English army in the medieval period. War clerics are the best cleric with a longbow.

They are also the second best in melee, and that's only because Tempest gets retaliation damage.

I think part of the problem was the Heavy Armor thing getting passed around too much. I think they dropped the ball there when it was on the design table. War and Life should have been the only two domains to get Heavy Armor Proficiency. Oh well it's too late for that now. I'm not proposing we nerf other domains to make the War Cleric feel special.

The cleric has always been a heavy armour class, from 1st edition/Basic. WotC where too badly burned by 4e to disregard tradition, so they only removed heavy armour from a couple of cleric domains.

 

[CapnZapp]

I do like the idea of being able to make a weapon attack after casting a spell, but it's almost too good unless it's granted at higher levels

Remember it IS kind of granted at higher levels.

A level 2 Cleric can use the feature (if we go with the unrefined suggestion) exactly three times a day.

Why? Because that Cleric has three spell slots.

So all the doom and gloom about it being OMGWTFBBQ levels of broken is... maybe a tad hysterical?

Even a level 5 Cleric can use it a grand total of nine times. Whoopidoo!

Since entering melee is inherently a bad move for any full caster, I am certain the value of this ability will drop off as the number of spell slots otherwise would allow it to be used "all day".

Let me rephrase: when you've got enough spell slots to use this ability all day long, a measly mace bash is so little extra damage, and the risks of staying in melee are so high, that the feature balances itself, receding into the background.

Some of you have defended the current War Priest ability with this exact argument, that it's okay for a defining feature to pale into insignificant as you level up.

But that completely misses the point, which is that the designer didn't think things through.

Redesigning War Priest to augment Cast Spell is, in that light, a brilliant illustration of what went wrong and how to put it right

The exact game balance can still be tweaked, however.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Anyone else think a dip in a fighting class for Great Weapon style can lead to a fun little burst for a war cleric when they don't want to use a spell?

Especially with a great sword and divine strike.

Giving the War cleric proficiency in Martial weapons would be thematic, increase their fighting capability, but not be overpowered.

So again, the point of this thread was not to bring the War Cleric up to par with the Fighter in fighting prowess. It's that it's generally lacking in melee even when compared to some of the other domains. All I'm saying is, I think the War Cleric SHOULD be the best domain for melee.

I'm not following that. It would probably be more fitting that the War cleric get tactical (or even strategic) buffs for their allies, since War is an inherently cooperative endeavour. (As opposed to just 'fighting', which any two people can do.)

But I DO feel like something needs to be done about the terrible War Priest feature. It is literally not useful after level 2 except for the dips from other Martial characters to exploit it, or for the rare GWM War Cleric.

Either you're seriously misusing the language, engaging in wild hyperbole, or I'm missing something major. Why is War Priest not useful for the cleric after level 2? Could you explain please?

 

[Geeknamese]

Either you're seriously misusing the language, engaging in wild hyperbole, or I'm missing something major. Why is War Priest not useful for the cleric after level 2? Could you explain please?

I believe he meant it is not useful after level 3 because clerics get the level 2 spell Spiritual Weapon. If you cast Spiritual Weapon in battle, that eats up your bonus action attack with an attack that is in most cases stronger than the War Priest’s Blessing bonus action attack.

I agree 100% with CapnZapp. The bonus action attack on Cleric spell casts is an elegant solution to this issue...and it is an issue. I’m not sure why there’s such an argument against this. With spells like Toll the Dead doing 2d12 at 5th level at range, no Cleric is going to wade into melee to possibly use a 3-5 time’s per day bonus action d8 Attack. But wading into melee is what a War Cleric should be doing. For all the other domains, the clerics subclass abilities and how they play out is evocative of what their gods represent. If I’m a cleric of Tempus, you bet my god is going to expect me to be in the heat of battle in the front lines, not in he back at the caster ranks with the wizard. The War clerics signature ability needs to incentivize this and the tweak CapnZapp is advocating really does a slick job of doing it.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

...

But I DO feel like something needs to be done about the terrible War Priest feature. It is literally not useful after level 2 except for the dips from other Martial characters to exploit it, or for the rare GWM War Cleric. Sure the War domain is the best in melee in the first 2 levels except for maybe the Tempest, but after that, all you have going for you is the +10 to an attack twice a day until level 17. Speaking of which, should probably be straight resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage period. Magical or not.

But anyway, the easiest fix is probably to simply move War Priest from the bonus action, and to do so in a way that other classes can't abuse with a quick dip.

A couple of things of note. The War Priest is kicking butt with other abilities at Higher Level - Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon for example, as well as taking melee attacks. They don't need other melee, just the ability to survive and contribute in the front ranks. Adding an attack puts them in the OP category, IMHO.

Providing a +10 bonus to hit with a reaction is NOT a 2xDay power, it is a 2xREST power. Big difference.