D&D 1E AD&D players and referees, what do you think of ascending AC?

[GreyLord]

It depends on your group.

For me, when I put their THAC0 on their character sheets, most permanent bonuses are included (STR, DEX bonuses for example) along with other bonuses that may be used on one of the lines that I have created for such a purpose.

This means, if I give them the AC of a monster (IF I feel so inclined, that's the DM's perogative and not a requirement to give to any player) all they have to do is take their THAC0 and subtract the AC from it.

That's simple enough that I've had First Graders able to do it...so...not so sure the other method is actually easier.

If I don't give out AC, the other method you mention wouldn't help or hinder them either as they don't have any other number to go on.

If you are suggesting they do their OWN math, well, 3e was always more complicated because it had more math overall (more modifiers in combat generally than 2e and variances in what could happen) and thus made it more prone for players to mess up the math in that way already.

If you want something more simple, such as C&C, it can work just as well, it's just opposite math day from AD&D.

 

[Old_Skool]

I never had a problem with THAC0, but it's nigh impossible to explain to newer players.

 

[cbwjm]

I never had a problem with THAC0, but it's nigh impossible to explain to newer players.

It did take a while to explain it to some newer players of OSE, I think many likely still don't quite get it but one guy's eyes lit up with understanding a few sessions ago.

 

[James Gasik]

I've had problems explaining how Thac0 works to people so profound, that when I've shared them, I was accused of lying, lol.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Simple question. No need for a poll.

I keep looking at the mess that is DMG page 74 and how much easier and quicker it would be to switch to attack bonuses and ascending AC.

For people still playing AD&D, how would you feel about the switch?

Ascending AC was what got my players to switch from 2E.

I get the nostalgia for doing things the way it was back in the day (I started playing with AD&D in '79), but ascending AC is a better system that I cannot imagine the designers wouldn't have gone with, if they had thought of it back in the day.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I never had a problem with THAC0, but it's nigh impossible to explain to newer players.

"THAC0 is your personal attack roll DC. Your first level guy needs to beat DC 20 on 1d20 + enemy AC to hit someone. That DC will go down as you level up."

 

[Micah Sweet]

"THAC0 is your personal attack roll DC. Your first level guy needs to beat DC 20 on 1d20 + enemy AC to hit someone. That DC will go down as you level up."

Now, no one could possibly understand that!

 

[cbwjm]

"THAC0 is your personal attack roll DC. Your first level guy needs to beat DC 20 on 1d20 + enemy AC to hit someone. That DC will go down as you level up."

I always say roll a d20, add any bonuses then subtract the lowest number from the highest number out of the die roll and Thac0. If the higher number is the die roll, throw a - in front of the result. That's the AC hit.

 

[James Gasik]

Really, probably the most fun part of explaining how the system works is how AD&D flip flops on how modifiers work. For example, the lower your Armor Class, the harder you are to hit.

Yet, rather than lowering your Thac0, attack bonuses increase your die roll (which has the same end result, but doesn't seem as intuitive to some people). The defensive adjustment from Dexterity gives a negative modifier to AC (this makes sense), but at the same time, bonuses to AC, like +1 armor or the Swashbuckler's AC bonus are expressed as positive numbers. I had a prospective player look at me like I was from another planet when I explained that +1 plate isn't cursed, lol.

Of course switching it wouldn't be ideal either ("so my -1 sword lowers my Thac0 by 1 but increases my damage?" or "so ok, magic swords have pluses, but magic armor has minuses?"), so really I just blame Dexterity here (and the occasional -1 bonus to AC that crops up here and there, like the Dark Sun Gladiator's armor optimization*).

*corrected in the revised version of the setting to be a positive bonus.

 

[Mannahnin]

Ascending AC was what got my players to switch from 2E.

Yup. Descending AC was a challenge for a lot of players back in the day, too.

I get the nostalgia for doing things the way it was back in the day (I started playing with AD&D in '79), but ascending AC is a better system that I cannot imagine the designers wouldn't have gone with, if they had thought of it back in the day.

Remember that when OD&D was originally published the lowest AC was 2. Magic armor and shields (the latter of which only functioned 1/3 of the time, and only if their bonus was greater than that of the armor) or a Ring of Protection subtracted from an opponent's to-hit rolls. Importing "class" for armor from Don't Give Up the Ship made some conceptual sense originally.

But once magic bonuses started subtracting from your actual AC, and once Dex bonuses to AC were introduced in Greyhawk, descending AC made less and less sense.

And as noted above, Gary DID think of this before AD&D came out, but unfortunately decided to stick with descending for consistency with what had already been published. And then of course 2E's mandate to maximize reverse compatibility prolonged the issue for another 11 years.