D&D 1E AD&D (yes, 2e too) players and referees, what do you think of rolling under for ability and NWP checks?

[Willie the Duck]

There were a couple niche actual adventuring abilities in the PHB NWPs.
Picking up a new language in game after figuring out starting ones could be nice.
Tumbling allowed no damage from a 10 foot fall and half from others up to 60' on a check, improving unarmed attack rolls by 2.
Healing was sub par compared to magical healing but was a distinct improvement over default healing and could be a supplement to magical healing.
Mountaineering allowed +10% to climbing chances per time taken.
Blindfighting reduced darkness/invisibility penalties.

To start with, you are absolutely correct. There were small niche abilities* that could come into play.
First and foremost, I was referring to/thinking of the skills where you specifically, well, skilled (were giving a nwp score, likely a modification of an attribute, and rolled that to effect the world in some way). Something like Blind-fighting seems like an orthogonal use of the same resource (nwp slots). To my mind, those are really not so much a slow descent towards spot checks, and closer to a slow descent towards the feat system.
Secondly, and in this case specifically to the skills as skills, not skills as feats ones, the point I am trying to raise/question I am seeking answers is: did they take over, or where they just there? Did characters go with fewer rations into the wilderness because they had survival-type nwps? Did having a character with healing and herbalism allow a party to take fewer days to heal up after harrowing dungeon crawls (and did it make an overall difference, like them facing fewer wandering monster checks while doing so)? Did characters buy smithy's and forge their own equipment (taking weeks or months off to do so)? I'm honest in the question, as I don't know how it went for others, for my groups, it was mostly about what NWPs at creation best defined your character thematically**
*Don't forget the juggling NWP's ability to catch small thrown weapons... if your character able to get rogue category nwps would rather attempt an AC0 attack check than gamble on the opponent missing
**and yes, as it slowly became such that you could trade them in for fighting styles or negating some combat penalty or a +0%/1-in-6 existing check style, it lurched into that instead.

Also Complete Thief's Handbook provided an observation NWP that seemed to be a spot type mechanic in 2e. Also an alertness one to reduce surprise but at the cost of an extra check everytime surprise came up for the chance to modify the surprise check.
Alertness
1 slot, Wisdom, + 1 modifier.
Required: Burglar.
Recommended: All.
A character with this proficiency is able to instinctively notice and recognize signs of a disturbance in the immediate vicinity, reducing by 1 in 6 the character's chance of being surprised whenever he makes a successful proficiency check.
Observation
1 slot, Intelligence, 0 modifier.
Required: Beggar, Cutpurse, Investigator, Spy, Swindler, Troubleshooter.
Recommended: Assassin, Bounty Hunter, Burgler, Fence, Smuggler.
Characters with this proficiency have cultivated exceptionally acute powers of observation. The DM may ask for a proficiency check (or secretly roll it himself) anytime there is something subtly askew; he may also allow characters with observation to increase their chance of finding secret or concealed doors by 1 in 6. The proficiency covers all the senses.
Example: Julina is questioning a man who claims to be a craftsman who has worked on the palace; she is searching for the most discreet entrance. The DM secretly rolls an observation proficiency check; it is successful. "You notice," he tells her, "that his hands are in beautiful condition, entirely lacking callouses." From this observation, Julina may deduce that the man is actually just posing as a craftsman; he may be a con man taking advantage of a few free drinks or coins, or he could even be a spy for her enemies.

Good points. I had not thought about these, and Observation even allows a proficiency check using its score. Complete Thief was a rare gem* -- it was a wonderful supplement for a lower-key, urban adventure game that I think the rest of the game just didn't focus on. Or maybe it was just like Cyberpunk Deckers in that we didn't play that way because then what would the fighters and clerics do.
*although it also had a bunch of things like equipment like hand-warming lamps that negated penalties the DM never though to impose until the book suggested said equipment would negate it (making it another 'you just hamstrung my abilities to justify your new subsystem' effect).

 

[Voadam]

To start with, you are absolutely correct. There were small niche abilities* that could come into play.
First and foremost, I was referring to/thinking of the skills where you specifically, well, skilled (were giving a nwp score, likely a modification of an attribute, and rolled that to effect the world in some way). Something like Blind-fighting seems like an orthogonal use of the same resource (nwp slots). To my mind, those are really not so much a slow descent towards spot checks, and closer to a slow descent towards the feat system.

Feat type bonus abilities were there since the introduction of non-weapon proficiencies and martial arts in Oriental Adventures. I would not say they were on a path of descent to the feat system, I would say picking up blindfighting is pretty much equivalent in AD&D and 3e. 3e's big development in this arena was splitting the skill versus specific minor ability features into two distinct categories of abilities and making skills fairly comprehensive with rules for people who specifically did not take them.

Secondly, and in this case specifically to the skills as skills, not skills as feats ones, the point I am trying to raise/question I am seeking answers is: did they take over, or where they just there? Did characters go with fewer rations into the wilderness because they had survival-type nwps? Did having a character with healing and herbalism allow a party to take fewer days to heal up after harrowing dungeon crawls (and did it make an overall difference, like them facing fewer wandering monster checks while doing so)? Did characters buy smithy's and forge their own equipment (taking weeks or months off to do so)? I'm honest in the question, as I don't know how it went for others, for my groups, it was mostly about what NWPs at creation best defined your character thematically**

I personally mostly looked for the feat type NWPs that gave game abilities I found useful. I found the wilderness survival ones required too many and were too fiddly to bother with and a lot of the skill type ones were just background flavor that I felt were handled fine by the secondary skill system or just roleplaying a chosen character concept instead.

We used NWPs in my AD&D game and as a DM I eventually became disillusioned with the roll under stat mechanic and the mechanical importance it placed on your unbalanced random character generation rolls that stuck with you forever and whether you were going with 3d6 in order or 1e Unearthed Arcana human rolls or various methods in the 2e PH or the PO systems.

For my groups it was not a big deal in effect, healing for example allowed a little quicker down time healing and a little (d3 hp?) occasional first aid for wounds so it stretched the cure lights further and it might take four days instead of six to heal the whole party after a big fight. Magical healing was still the big core of recovery.

I think taking NWPs to flesh out your character conceptually a little then not sweating them was a decent way to approach them, they were not a hugely big deal so spending your NWP on agriculture to say you had a background as an assistant pig-keeper did not really handicap most characters even though none of the mechanics were likely to ever come up and it cost you slots that could go to other things.

*Don't forget the juggling NWP's ability to catch small thrown weapons... if your character able to get rogue category nwps would rather attempt an AC0 attack check than gamble on the opponent missing

That was a suboptimal mechanical trap option for the most part in my opinion. You have to hit AC 0 with the rogue oriented juggling NWP, and if you miss you automatically take the damage. A 20th level 2e rogue has a THAC0 of 11 so a 50/50 shot of taking auto damage.

**and yes, as it slowly became such that you could trade them in for fighting styles or negating some combat penalty or a +0%/1-in-6 existing check style, it lurched into that instead.

I was pouring proficiencies into martial arts abilities for my characters since OA.

Complete Fighter style specializations just added more fun options in that regard.

Good points. I had not thought about these, and Observation even allows a proficiency check using its score. Complete Thief was a rare gem* -- it was a wonderful supplement for a lower-key, urban adventure game that I think the rest of the game just didn't focus on. Or maybe it was just like Cyberpunk Deckers in that we didn't play that way because then what would the fighters and clerics do.
*although it also had a bunch of things like equipment like hand-warming lamps that negated penalties the DM never though to impose until the book suggested said equipment would negate it (making it another 'you just hamstrung my abilities to justify your new subsystem' effect).

 

[James Gasik]

*although it also had a bunch of things like equipment like hand-warming lamps that negated penalties the DM never though to impose until the book suggested said equipment would negate it (making it another 'you just hamstrung my abilities to justify your new subsystem' effect).

That's a cynical look at it, but in all honesty, DM's come up with unforeseen complications all the time, and I've often looked at equipment lists wondering why "item that would cover this" doesn't exist!* It's always been kind of an arms race, and- Gary introduced ear seekers, now listening cones are a thing.

You could say "aha, hand warming lamps and weaponblack add new complications" but you could just as easily say "these items exist just in case your DM likes to add complications". Sure, maybe you're right, and most DM's wouldn't think about these things until they looked at the equipment, but I guarantee some would.

It was actually my experience that most DM's didn't read player books too carefully for whatever reason, and were constantly surprised by the things pulled out of them- the Complete Book of Thieves and Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue were notorious in my area with DM's both loving and hating them, lol.

*For instance, in my recent 5e game, we had a rash of fights that hinged on the ability to deal non-physical or fire damage to foes, something most martial classes cannot do (outside of using torches as improvised weapons or expensive vials of acid). I asked the DM about making rules for fire arrows- he said he'd think about it, but nothing ever came of it. You'd think we'd have rules for things like this!

 

[teitan]

It took what was before a DM’s judgement as far as skills and codified a skill system into D&D whereas before it was generally taken for granted or a justify it etc. For 10 years, because AD&D was itself the direct extension of OD&D and its supplements, the game was played very differently and then NWP drop into it for its last handful of years. I don’t think I really need to clarify anything just because the commenter is a fan of the system.

 

[Voadam]

I did have a player play a 2e psionicst in one of my Ravenloft campaigns and it was fun with a lot of narrative hooks for the campaign. My memory is that 2e psionics had both a point cost and a roll under applicable stat mechanic to activate OK fairly odd powers. Not my favorite mechanic and I never played a 2e psionicist but I was fine with it as a DM.

 

[AnderNGmx]

This is always how i did it, roll under you ability score in 2e and 1e. Simple and fast.