Adjudicating Readied Actions

[IceBear]

That doesn't seem simpler than just adjudicating whether or not the readied action came before or after the initiative count of the target.

If a fighter has Initiative count of 17, does a full attack, then steps forward 5' and triggers a readied action from an archer, I can't see how the archer is now ahead of the fighter in the initiative count - his actions took place after the fighter finished all of his.

Yes, I know that a readied action always preceeds the triggered action, but in these examples, it just doesn't fit right so I'd just rule that the archer is now just trailing the fighter in the initiative count.

If the fighter declared that he was going to take a full attack action, and that triggered the readied action, then I can see that the archer obviously is ahead of the fighter in the initiative count as his actions took place before the fighters.

IceBear

 

[Dr. Zoom]

BTW - are you sure that you have to declare the partial action completely with readied action. I would have allowed someone to say they would attack if X, and then if X I'd allow them to describe the attack option - which I thought included a charge.

IceBear

I am pretty sure. It says that you must specify the partial action. These partial actions are listed in the PH on page 127. The attack actions from which to choose are listed as melee, ranged, unarmed, and partial charge. Therefore, if you ready a melee attack, you cannot change it to a ranged attack, unarmed attack, or partial charge. Likewise for the magic partial actions. You cannot ready a spell and then use a wand when the conditions are met.

 

[IceBear]

I am pretty sure. It says that you must specify the partial action. These partial actions are listed in the PH on page 127. The attack actions from which to choose are listed as melee, ranged, unarmed, and partial charge. Therefore, if you ready a melee attack, you cannot change it to a ranged attack, unarmed attack, or partial charge. Likewise for the magic partial actions. You cannot ready a spell and then use a wand when the conditions are met.

Ok - thanks. Didn't have access to that chart and wasn't sure if Partial Charge was considered an attack action with regards to declaring your Readied Action.

I'm going to house rule that you can swap a melee attack for a partial charge (and visa versa) because Readied Actions suck as it is, and this is just another way for a mage to avoid getting his spell disrupted fairly easily.

Also, if you readied a partial charge if X occurs, then that person could just move up next to you and then do X and you couldn't attack him because you need to be at least 10' away to partial charge (granted that in most cases X would draw an AoO, but still it seems to help neuter readied actions even more).

IceBear

 

[Dr. Zoom]

If a fighter has Initiative count of 17, does a full attack, then steps forward 5' and triggers a readied action from an archer, I can't see how the archer is now ahead of the fighter in the initiative count - his actions took place after the fighter finished all of his.

Yes, I know that a readied action always preceeds the triggered action, but in these examples, it just doesn't fit right so I'd just rule that the archer is now just trailing the fighter in the initiative count.

IceBear

Because the archer's shot was readied. He can now take a normal action before the fighter has a chance to react to this new situation. It is similar, but not identical, to surprise (the fighter is not flat-footed, for example).

Another option, depending upon the circumstances, is to bring the archers into combat as aware new participants. Then they automatically go first at the top of the order. If they were already part of the initiative, you could not do this.

 

[IceBear]

Because the archer's shot was readied. He can now take a normal action before the fighter has a chance to react to this new situation. It is similar, but not identical, to surprise (the fighter is not flat-footed, for example).

That's what I originally said to Daniel, but as he pointed out if the fighter moved first, and was attacked by the archers, he could then (in the same round) take action to protect himself - duck back around the corner, hide behind his tower shield, move up next to them, etc. However, because he did something first and then moved, he's now stuck with two rounds of attacks before he can react. It's because of the vast differences between these two situations (even though, other than the order at which they were taken, they are identical).

Another option, depending upon the circumstances, is to bring the archers into combat as aware new participants. Then they automatically go first at the top of the order. If they were already part of the initiative, you could not do this.

That's a possibilty, but I think I'll just stick with adjudicating it on a case by case basis.

IceBear

 

[Dr. Zoom]

How I see your scenario. Fighter uses full attack to take out the enemy and then steps around the corner and gets nailed with readied enemy fire. Fighter starts toward the archers but takes more fire before he covers the distance. Unless the archers kill him, the fighter covers the distance and starts chopping up the archers.

I just don't see a problem here.

However, if you do, here are a couple of suggestions. Perhaps allow the one with the highest dex to go first. Or roll opposed dex checks to see who gets the edge in the next round. Or just rule that any readied action triggered at the very end of another's turn by a 5 foot move changes the initiative to the same number and goes immediately after rather than before that one's turn. Frankly, as a DM, if the fighter steps around a corner in combat and enters a killing zone, I would let the archers rip him apart if they can. I'm sure the fighter will return the favor if he survives.

 

[IceBear]

How I see your scenario. Fighter uses full attack to take out the enemy and then steps around the corner and gets nailed with readied enemy fire. Fighter starts toward the archers but takes more fire before he covers the distance. Unless the archers kill him, the fighter covers the distance and starts chopping up the archers.

I just don't see a problem here.

However, if you do, here are a couple of suggestions. Perhaps allow the one with the highest dex to go first. Or roll opposed dex checks to see who gets the edge in the next round. Or just rule that any readied action triggered at the very end of another's turn by a 5 foot move changes the initiative to the same number and goes immediately after rather than before that one's turn. Frankly, as a DM, if the fighter steps around a corner in combat and enters a killing zone, I would let the archers rip him apart if they can. I'm sure the fighter will return the favor if he survives.

The problem is that the results are different depending only on the order of the fighter's actions.

Same scenario:

Fighter moves around corner, gets shot at, and then moves up next to the archer. The archer now has to either retreat or swap weapons (to avoid suffering an AoO) and thus possibly giving up his multiple attacks. The fighter is in a more advantageous situation than in your scenario, all because he moved first. That's my problem.

I like my solution, and I'm going to use it. This example will rarely come up in actual play, because in most cases everyone is aware of everyone else so that the readied actions happen at the beginning of the initiative count, so it's not a big deal. But basically, if your readied action comes at the end of someone else's turn, then your initiative becomes just a little slower than the other persons instead of a little faster.

IceBear

 

[Gizzard]

The same situation came up in our game this weekend; but from the opposite perspective:

I take one move to go around a corner into an unexplored room. I see humanoid enemies there, too far away to engage so I ready an action to punch (I am a monk) anyone who comes up to me. I stand my ground on Initiative 17.

Next round, on Initiative 18, the enemies release their "pet" from a cage outside the range of my light. (The pet is a big, dangerous animal; just the sort of thing that a monk should not go toe-to-toe with.) It charges me. So what should happen?

At first I rolled a single attack (the readied attack, "before" Init 18) and then adjusted my Initiative to 18 immediately rolled a flurry of blows. I got 3 attacks in on the pet before he could swing back. The DM and many of the players (including me) were a bit nervous about that precedent. We discussed it and temporarily house ruled it that I could not get more than my maximum number of attacks in a single round.

The problem with that idea is that I get one "readied" swing at the pet and then I essentially lose the next round of action by not getting to attack him again. (Or fight defensively or run behind one of the fighters and whimper like a schoolgirl. Whatever is most appropriate for a squishy monk.) So, it seems, the readied action allows you to have either a little too much power or a lot too little.

We considered house ruling it so that the readied action expires at the end of the round, but that seemed contrary to the spirit also.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Fighter moves around corner, gets shot at, and then moves up next to the archer. The archer now has to either retreat or swap weapons (to avoid suffering an AoO) and thus possibly giving up his multiple attacks. The fighter is in a more advantageous situation than in your scenario, all because he moved first. That's my problem.

If possible, the archers would just take a 5 and loose a full volley at the fighter. Besides, I would not go out of my way to make sure the fighter gets this advantage, especially in such an inherently disadvantageous situation. Let the fighter sweat until he closes the distance. Archers are fearful threats, after all.

I like my solution, and I'm going to use it. This example will rarely come up in actual play, because in most cases everyone is aware of everyone else so that the readied actions happen at the beginning of the initiative count, so it's not a big deal. But basically, if your readied action comes at the end of someone else's turn, then your initiative becomes just a little slower than the other persons instead of a little faster.

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Fair enough. I don't think your house rule is unreasonable. I just don't see a great need for it.

 

[IceBear]

Well, you would have gotten your readied attack, then the monster would have attacked. Then the next round you could do whatever you wanted before the monster. I don't understand how you lost a round of actions.

Yeah, in this case it might have been better to delay and see what was going to happen. Then, after the monster attacked you, you could have flurried it (instead of taking just one punch). But now, you will always be behind it in the initiative count.

IceBear