Adjustment to Craft Points and Crafting

[Bront]

There's been a discussion as to the use of craft points, so I'm here to propose a change.

Each change can be delt with individualy, or as a group.

Change #1
The Craft Masterwork Item feat should be removed as a requirement to create masterwork items. Still requiring the skill ranks to create masterwork items and alchemical items can be kept, but the feat should not bre required. It is an unessessary extra requirement of a feat, that is more restrictive than the base RAW, and has limited the ideas of many a character to craft items of any kind.

Change #2
Craft points should not replace the regular crafting system. I understand time is in a state of flux in LEW, but as the system even states in UA, it is not ment to replace the origional system, just to supliment it. I believe that if, durring an adventure, a player is able to take the time to craft an item, normal craft rules should apply. As well, I think that there should be some time allowed for crafting between adventures, when players would normaly be allowed to craft items in a normal adventure. A relitive time frame could be created, or the appropriate time could be just considered to have passed. This again encourages players to pursue item creation as a feasable option, without placing any undue limites on it. In fact, with the craft point system, players can now work to create items on the fly durring an adventure, which encourages crafting as a real party boon (Particularly when a character takes all the XP hit still, which can be a bit more frustrating in a somewhat more individualistic situation like a living campaign).

2A) Durring an adventure, a player is able to take the time to craft an item, normal craft rules should apply.

2B) Time allowed for crafting between adventures, when players would normaly be allowed to craft items

Discussion and feedback would be appretiated.

Change #3 (Suggested by Knight Otu)

To craft an item in between adventures, a character with the appropriate item creation feat (such as Craft Masterwork Items, Brew Potion, or Craft Staff; see below) can pay one-fifth the item's cost to create (usually half the item's market price) in craft points (minimum 1 point). He must also pay the normal material costs for the item's creation.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think that Change #2 is already under effect until stated otherwise. As for Change #1, I think Craft Masterwork Item feat is used only to spend Craft Points for masterwork items, which means that you can craft them normally without the feat if you have time--basically, the feat exists to prevent exploitation of craft points for masterwork items (which can sell for quite a bit, but usually take quite a while to make), so that Bob can't just say: "Yeah, I know I have no ranks in any Craft skill, but I'm going to spend those craft points I have sitting around to make 5 masterwork greatswords and then sell them for profit."

 

[El Jefe]

I'm for proposal #2, especially if some sort of relative time system can be worked out. I'm thinking that a craftsman who does not adventure frequently wouldn't just "run out of craft points and retire", but would pursue his craft as an occupation until either he was quite wealthy or simply too feeble to work any longer.

I understand that the biggest objection to this is that a PC who had the minimum stats necessary to craft a particular item could pump them out by the kajillions if there was no firm accounting for time. So, I think there needs to be a reasonable accounting for time. For example, one day of real time = one day of "craft time". There are many other feasible systems.

For those who complain that a PC who stays behind to craft will become inordinately wealthy for someone of his level even with these restrictions in place, my counter is that a wealthy 10th level character may be the equal of a "standard" 14th level character, but even with their magical gewgaws they still won't have the hp, bab, saves, etc. that they would have if they spent that time adventuring instead of crafting.

 

[Bront]

I think that Change #2 is already under effect until stated otherwise. As for Change #1, I think Craft Masterwork Item feat is used only to spend Craft Points for masterwork items, which means that you can craft them normally without the feat if you have time--basically, the feat exists to prevent exploitation of craft points for masterwork items (which can sell for quite a bit, but usually take quite a while to make), so that Bob can't just say: "Yeah, I know I have no ranks in any Craft skill, but I'm going to spend those craft points I have sitting around to make 5 masterwork greatswords and then sell them for profit."

Actualy, craft points still requires the roll, so you can't withough being able to craft the item successfully, so the feat realy is just there to get in the way, since it's stated that there is no way to craft non-masterwork items without the feat (I believe that's how it's worded)

And, unless it's been stated othewise, we are only using the craft points. It was discussed to use #2, but never been officialy proposed, which is part of what this is about.

I'm for proposal #2, especially if some sort of relative time system can be worked out. I'm thinking that a craftsman who does not adventure frequently wouldn't just "run out of craft points and retire", but would pursue his craft as an occupation until either he was quite wealthy or simply too feeble to work any longer.

I understand that the biggest objection to this is that a PC who had the minimum stats necessary to craft a particular item could pump them out by the kajillions if there was no firm accounting for time. So, I think there needs to be a reasonable accounting for time. For example, one day of real time = one day of "craft time". There are many other feasible systems.

For those who complain that a PC who stays behind to craft will become inordinately wealthy for someone of his level even with these restrictions in place, my counter is that a wealthy 10th level character may be the equal of a "standard" 14th level character, but even with their magical gewgaws they still won't have the hp, bab, saves, etc. that they would have if they spent that time adventuring instead of crafting.

1 for 1 time accounting is unfair in a PbP, especialy since everything else moves so slow. Some items take weeks to months to craft, so are you going to make some character keep his PbP character out of action for months so he can craft an item?

4 for 1 might be a better compromise or 2 days = 1 week (A little less accurate for things that take less than a week, but still easily usable).

I agree with your sumation of crafting. Money can help, but you can't make up 4 levels with it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And, unless it's been stated othewise, we are only using the craft points. It was discussed to use #2, but never been officialy proposed, which is part of what this is about.

Not by the RAW for LEW--specifically, it states that the craft points system from UA is being used. However the Craft Point system from UA specifically allows your #2 to be used, crafting without the points is always allowable assuming appropriate time is available. Thus, if during the course of the adventure, a PC finds the time to craft something, by the LEW RAW, they could do it without spending craft points.

Now, if you're proposing this 4 for 1 time accounting thing in the RDI, then I agree--that's a new proposal

 

[El Jefe]

4 for 1 might be a better compromise or 2 days = 1 week (A little less accurate for things that take less than a week, but still easily usable).

Yeah, I wasn't trying to dictate the ratio; I just wanted to point out that there were ways of dealing with it that made more sense to me.

I agree with pretty much everything you posted on the subject.

 

[Xael]

1. I agree that the Craft Masterwork Item should be removed. Taking ranks in craft skills is rare enough as it is.

2. I like this suggestion too. We just need to work out the appropriate time ratio, or something else.



I only have a one other problem with the craft point system, which is related to creation of items and scolls that have additional experience point costs of their own. As written, the cost to create a Tome of Understanding +5 has risen from the normal

6,250 gp + 25,500 XP

to

68,750 gp + 25,500 Xp (Table has an error btw.) + 13,750 Craft Points.

The cost to create a Scroll of Wish has risen from the normal

3,825 gp + 5,153 XP

to

14,412.5 gp + 5,153 XP + 2882,5 Craft Points.

Nobody is making these items anytime soon, but let's ignore that for now.

I'm not sure if this was intentional, but that's a pretty damn hefty increase in cost to make, in addition to a huge amount of craft points. I would prefer for the "He must also pay material costs equal to one-half the item's market price (this replaces the normal material cost for crafting an item)." -line to be removed or changed. I have some problems with the huge amount of craft points required when compared to the cost to create after that too though.

 

[Bront]

Ugh, I don't think it was realized that extra added exp cost.

Yes, that does need to change.

How does the 4:1 ratio work? Or is 2 days = 1 week better for simplicity sake? (Since most projects are done in weeks, not days)

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm strongly in favor of suggestion 1. This system should not be making crafting harder or rarer, but that is what see it doing with the craft masterwork/alchemy feat in place. As I mentioned in another thread, the only way I could see that feat as reasonable would be if the normal extra "materials" charge for a masterwork item was replaced by an additional craft point expenditure - the feat and the craft points represent the skill you have to create a masterwork item out of the same materials a lesser craftsman would create a standard item out of.

If we get rid of the feat, we can establish a minimum requirement in skill ranks and/or equiptment needed to craft masterwork items. 1 rank 1st level characters can't craft masterwork greatswords. (well, except with this feat. )

Suggestion 2 I could go eiter way on, but again, I think crafting should be easier with this system, so generally I'm in favor.

 

[Bront]

Good feedback so far. Any judges want to chime in with some feedback? I can tweek the proposal as needed.