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And if you do participate in a playtest, it is your job...
Advanced Race Guide Playtest
Systole
First Post
Look, I'll provide feedback, but providing feedback is charity work for me. I'm not getting paid. Therefore, there's no reason why I should go out of my way to provide it, especially since Paizo has a history of ... well, not giving a $%@# about customer feedback anyway. If Paizo actually wants to hear what I have to say, they can come read it here.
If I have a sofa that I'm giving away for free, and you want the sofa, then I think it's only fair that you come to my house and pick it up. Mr. Jacobs seems to be asking not only to get my sofa for free, but that I deliver it to him personally. I'm not interested.
I understand what you are saying, and we do lurk in a lot of forums and listen to what people have to say. So while it is helpful to us that people post in our forums, because it is easier for us to track, it doesn't mean that we are not listening to folks in other forums...especially this one and RPG.net.
I do have to disagree with your statement that we don't care about customer feedback. We are actually active on our messageboards and listen carefully to what people have to say, and take that feedback to heart. It is one of the many reasons that I love working at Paizo.
Skills and languages are overvalued. Having another skill point a level ain't worth 4 points when intelligence is easy to get. Adaptability, the human-blooded thing that gives Skill Focus for 1 point, that sounds right. Then you have something right next to it, Skill Bonus, that gives +2 to a skill. This isn't worth 2 points.
Now I suspect the reason this was made worth 2 points was to make sure core races, by hookedness and by crookedness, made it to 10 points. No way. It was done to go +2 on Climb and Acrobatics and Perception for the Halfling was worth 6 points. That is what others are saying and what my gut is telling me. You could package that up, call it "Halfling Talent" or whatever, and make it 2 points. As it is, a human or half elf can go... +6 to all of those skills from Adaptability Skill Focuses by level 10 and still have 3 points to spare.
The designer just didn't want to go, "Human flexibility makes them strong, that will be limited when speciality races are made off the Advanced Races Guide. And Halflings are like a 6 or 7 point race, not a 10 point race.
Now I suspect the reason this was made worth 2 points was to make sure core races, by hookedness and by crookedness, made it to 10 points. No way. It was done to go +2 on Climb and Acrobatics and Perception for the Halfling was worth 6 points. That is what others are saying and what my gut is telling me. You could package that up, call it "Halfling Talent" or whatever, and make it 2 points. As it is, a human or half elf can go... +6 to all of those skills from Adaptability Skill Focuses by level 10 and still have 3 points to spare.
The designer just didn't want to go, "Human flexibility makes them strong, that will be limited when speciality races are made off the Advanced Races Guide. And Halflings are like a 6 or 7 point race, not a 10 point race.
James Jacobs
Adventurer
Partially correct; we WANT to hear back from folks about the playtests. That's why we make them public. The main place we look for that feedback is on our forums at Paizo, but we also look elsewhere. Stephen and my presence on this board should be proof that we at least look at EN world (but we also monitor feedback from other RPG boards as well).
If you don't like the Paizo boards... no problem! Hopefully we'll catch your feedback here or elsewhere.
If you don't want to take part in the playtest, also no problem! There's plenty of other gamers out there who do! We don't need feedback from everyone, after all... we just need feedback!
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Walking Dad
First Post
No offense, but the Paizo forum is 'sometimes' Pathfinder loving so much that you have difficulties to voice opinions. I also play most of the time online, so I cannot get enough playtest data quickly enough to participate.
And non-playtest critic is valued much there.
(I also think the added advertisement through the playtests doesn't hurt much, so I think there are more benefits for sharing the material before the release.)
My opinions:
- The core races are not worth the same. As Fishbone pointed out, I think much of the wonky point values originate in trying to do this.
- Some racial restriction don't make much sense. Why can only fey be tiny? Why can anyone buy the trait for +2 to all saves, but only halflings the one that gives +1?
And non-playtest critic is valued much there.
(I also think the added advertisement through the playtests doesn't hurt much, so I think there are more benefits for sharing the material before the release.)
My opinions:
- The core races are not worth the same. As Fishbone pointed out, I think much of the wonky point values originate in trying to do this.
- Some racial restriction don't make much sense. Why can only fey be tiny? Why can anyone buy the trait for +2 to all saves, but only halflings the one that gives +1?
I did these at Paizo and didn't get too much response, but here are my thoughts, just to show problems with Humans and Halflings.
Here we go...
Halfling Human!
Humanoid (Human) 0 Points
Small Size 0 Points
30 Foot Standard Movement (0 points)
Standard Languages (1 point)
Standard Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity and +2 Charisma, -2 Strength (0 Points)
Adaptability Once (1 Point)
Alertness as a Set Feat (2 Points)
Climbing Speed 1 Point
Halfling Luck
Fearless
Weapon Proficiency
So 10 foot better movement, 20 foot climb speed instead of 5 foot climb speed, +8 to climb speed untyped instead of +2 racial, Alertness to give +4 to Perception at 10th level and +2 to +4 potentially to Sense Motive, Adaptability to Acrobatics for possibly +6 to Acrobatics at 10th level. And it is the same cost. Fearless and Weapon Proficiency stink. You can either take the -2 to strength off of two more abilities. Maybe Sprinter and Low Light Vision, Stubborn and Cat's Luck, etc.
Human on the Cheap
Flexible abilities (+2 to whatever you were going to take, +2 Intelligence)
Standard Languages (You learn one more language anyway) 1 point
Bonus feat as a race standard feat, something you'd want anyway 2 Points
Oh snap, we just got the same benefits of a human, for 5 points.
Here we go...
Halfling Human!
Humanoid (Human) 0 Points
Small Size 0 Points
30 Foot Standard Movement (0 points)
Standard Languages (1 point)
Standard Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity and +2 Charisma, -2 Strength (0 Points)
Adaptability Once (1 Point)
Alertness as a Set Feat (2 Points)
Climbing Speed 1 Point
Halfling Luck
Fearless
Weapon Proficiency
So 10 foot better movement, 20 foot climb speed instead of 5 foot climb speed, +8 to climb speed untyped instead of +2 racial, Alertness to give +4 to Perception at 10th level and +2 to +4 potentially to Sense Motive, Adaptability to Acrobatics for possibly +6 to Acrobatics at 10th level. And it is the same cost. Fearless and Weapon Proficiency stink. You can either take the -2 to strength off of two more abilities. Maybe Sprinter and Low Light Vision, Stubborn and Cat's Luck, etc.
Human on the Cheap
Flexible abilities (+2 to whatever you were going to take, +2 Intelligence)
Standard Languages (You learn one more language anyway) 1 point
Bonus feat as a race standard feat, something you'd want anyway 2 Points
Oh snap, we just got the same benefits of a human, for 5 points.
BriarMonkey
First Post
I don't think Golden's guide is a panacea, any more than Savage Species was to 3e (and yes, I know that book had a lot of issues). Just like this is a preliminary release, I don't think it is a panacea either.
Every GM I have ever chatted with about creating races or templates, or determining the value of a race or template has always had differing opinions. In my old 3e campaign, I ruled that the half-dragon template was a 4-level level adjustment to anyone who took it. The other GM in our group used a 3-level level adjustment. One of my friends said he wouldn't let it in the game at under a 5- or 6-level level adjustment. None of us agreed although we could all see each other's reasoning.
Where I think that all these differing resources do help, and can help a lot, is to provide the GM a starting point, a basis from which they can figure out what works for their campaign world, and what doesn't. From there, they can fiddle and create something that works for them.
I doubt all of us would ever agree to all the point values, but for those that feel they are off base, they have a point with which to start. This is true whether using a guide like Golden's or the Advanced Player's Guide from Paizo.
For my part, this is something I am going to watch closely as it presents me with a lot of ideas. When I get some time, I'd definitely going to fiddle and see where my sensibilities tell me the points should lay. But on first blush, I think it's a good start.
Every GM I have ever chatted with about creating races or templates, or determining the value of a race or template has always had differing opinions. In my old 3e campaign, I ruled that the half-dragon template was a 4-level level adjustment to anyone who took it. The other GM in our group used a 3-level level adjustment. One of my friends said he wouldn't let it in the game at under a 5- or 6-level level adjustment. None of us agreed although we could all see each other's reasoning.
Where I think that all these differing resources do help, and can help a lot, is to provide the GM a starting point, a basis from which they can figure out what works for their campaign world, and what doesn't. From there, they can fiddle and create something that works for them.
I doubt all of us would ever agree to all the point values, but for those that feel they are off base, they have a point with which to start. This is true whether using a guide like Golden's or the Advanced Player's Guide from Paizo.
For my part, this is something I am going to watch closely as it presents me with a lot of ideas. When I get some time, I'd definitely going to fiddle and see where my sensibilities tell me the points should lay. But on first blush, I think it's a good start.
I like the concept, but as has been pointed out, the numbers need tweaking to fit for the core races before anyone even bothers with other races.
As to the playtest itself, I'll give it a pass here and on the Paizo boards because after seeing the way playtesting for the ninja, samurai, firearms, piecemail armor, UC feats, UC ATs, and so on went (either ignored or non-existant), I simply have better ways to waste my time. (Shame, really, given how well I think the magus turned out)
Now if UR comes out and clearly shows improvement due to feedback, then I'll be all over the next time.
'till then, won't be fooled again.
That said, kudos James and Stephen for replying and here's hoping UR ups the gaming stakes.
As to the playtest itself, I'll give it a pass here and on the Paizo boards because after seeing the way playtesting for the ninja, samurai, firearms, piecemail armor, UC feats, UC ATs, and so on went (either ignored or non-existant), I simply have better ways to waste my time. (Shame, really, given how well I think the magus turned out)
Now if UR comes out and clearly shows improvement due to feedback, then I'll be all over the next time.
'till then, won't be fooled again.
That said, kudos James and Stephen for replying and here's hoping UR ups the gaming stakes.
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