Example. A party is wandering the underdark. A pack of bulletes burrow from the earth and surprise the party. For simplicity, say the Party rolled 20 for initiative, snd the monsters 10. If the party all had Alertness, does that mean they can react before the monsters can even attack on with their "supposed" ambush of the party ?
D&D 5E Alertness & initative Query
I believe that surprise happens outside of initiative, or after, but disregarding initiative. The PHB says that you compare the stealth roll of the ambusher with the Passive perception of the ambushed.
In this case, you roll for the bulletes, and compare that to the Passive perception of the players. Those who have a PP under the rolled number are surprised, and cannot take their first turn of combat. Basically just "Lose a turn" in the initiative order, and wait until it rolls around again. Any players who have a PP over the rolled number fight in whatever order they got for initiative.
On the other hand, if the entire party has the Alert feat, this is all meaningless. It states you cannot be surprised while conscious, so you simply don't get Surprised.
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As bulletes have no Stealth score, and only 10 Dex their ability to Stealth is "Not Good"... But assuming the Party has a Perception able to notice the appearance of the monster, the Alertness feat means they cannot be surprised and can so act on the "surprise round". Mt query is if they have a higher initiative than the monster can they act before the moster does even as it bursts from the ground ?
Yes, if they roll higher on initiative they can go first. If the entire party has Alert there is basically no "surprise round" unless they are the ones doing the ambushing. The entire party, if conscious, cannot be surprised at all, so you just go through initiative as normal.
ad_hoc
(they/them)
There is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e.
If a creature is surprised then it doesn't do anything on its turn, and ceases to be affected by surprise (can start taking reactions).
That was why I put surprise round in quotations, because it is not exactly a "surprise round", just the round in which a PC is Surprised.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
Surprised is a state that creatures can be in at the start of combat when they are not aware of any threats. If they are aware of any threats at all they are not surprised (such as when already in combat, hearing burrowing creatures nearby, or approached by visible potential enemies).
The designation surprised/i] means they do not act or move and cannot take reactions until their turn (they still roll initiative) has ended. It does not grants detection of hidden or unseen foes. It is just a special status effect only applying to the first round of an encounter when one side is trying to Hide or disguise its intentions (during a nonthreatening encounter).
It does not grant auto-detection abilities, but rather a 'spidey-sense' that there is a threat. Creatures can still be unseen through invisibility or blindness (note bullet 3 - unseen creatures do not get advantage). It does not allow you any special ability to detect hidden foes although most of the offensive benefits from being Hidden are negated (no advantage from being unseen, which also disallows one means of Sneak Attack). Regarding Assassinate, it negates the auto-crit but still allows for Advantage (and thus sneak attack) for beating a foe's initiative.
To hide a creature needs to be both unseen and unheard. I wouldn't expect Bulletes to be silent while burrowing so it wouldn't be unusual for a party to hear something coming and prepare but not necessarily know what the threat is. Just that there is a threat.
Many DMs rule differently - in interpreting the rules, or in ignoring the rules.
The designation surprised/i] means they do not act or move and cannot take reactions until their turn (they still roll initiative) has ended. It does not grants detection of hidden or unseen foes. It is just a special status effect only applying to the first round of an encounter when one side is trying to Hide or disguise its intentions (during a nonthreatening encounter).
It does not grant auto-detection abilities, but rather a 'spidey-sense' that there is a threat. Creatures can still be unseen through invisibility or blindness (note bullet 3 - unseen creatures do not get advantage). It does not allow you any special ability to detect hidden foes although most of the offensive benefits from being Hidden are negated (no advantage from being unseen, which also disallows one means of Sneak Attack). Regarding Assassinate, it negates the auto-crit but still allows for Advantage (and thus sneak attack) for beating a foe's initiative.
To hide a creature needs to be both unseen and unheard. I wouldn't expect Bulletes to be silent while burrowing so it wouldn't be unusual for a party to hear something coming and prepare but not necessarily know what the threat is. Just that there is a threat.
Many DMs rule differently - in interpreting the rules, or in ignoring the rules.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
1. Combat begins the moment the land sharks burst from the ground and move to attack. Before that there can be no combat if by saying they surprise the party you mean their presence has so far gone undetected.
2. The fact that the party has Alert and rolled a higher initiative means the actions they take on their turns will be resolved first, before the land sharks can complete the attack that started the battle.
BoldItalic
First Post
If everyone in the party has the Alert feat, the bulettes cannot surprise them. They cannot be ambushed.
(edit - added)
A tactic the DM can use to counter this, is to put up a sacrificial monster first to trigger combat then have the bulk of the monsters arrive and attack on their turn at the end of the first round.
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UngeheuerLich
Legend
Its a difficult situation actually and my only problem with the alert feat: PC acting before anything happens...
my solutions:
1) Combat starts after the first sign of combat happens. It may be someone bursting out of the ground. It may be some bolt being shot from a well disguised ambush position that just requires the single shooter to trigger the bolt. And even then the alert people may cast shield or use protection fighting style and an assasin could not use their auto crit ability. I imagine it like in movies where the police officers just notice the assasin right before the shot which was a readied action. A single attack that needs a certain trigger and no movement before or after.
2) If only one PC has alert and a different party member or even birds or some other creatures like the horses are not surprised, the alert PC may notice that something is wrong and may act before the enemies are noticed directly.
In the bulette situation I might go with either bulettes burst out of the ground go initiative, or if horses are around them I would tell them, suddenly it becomes auspiciously silent and the horses semm nervous. Roll initiative. The first one to go which may be a PC character could make a perception check that allows him to notice the earth trembling. The PCs could also maybe just use the dodge action.
But careful, you don't want your PCs with alert in following situation:
All alert PCs go first and have no clue what is up and do nothing, then all creatures with low initiative appear and immediately attack. That would make high initiative a penalty instead of a bonus.
my solutions:
1) Combat starts after the first sign of combat happens. It may be someone bursting out of the ground. It may be some bolt being shot from a well disguised ambush position that just requires the single shooter to trigger the bolt. And even then the alert people may cast shield or use protection fighting style and an assasin could not use their auto crit ability. I imagine it like in movies where the police officers just notice the assasin right before the shot which was a readied action. A single attack that needs a certain trigger and no movement before or after.
2) If only one PC has alert and a different party member or even birds or some other creatures like the horses are not surprised, the alert PC may notice that something is wrong and may act before the enemies are noticed directly.
In the bulette situation I might go with either bulettes burst out of the ground go initiative, or if horses are around them I would tell them, suddenly it becomes auspiciously silent and the horses semm nervous. Roll initiative. The first one to go which may be a PC character could make a perception check that allows him to notice the earth trembling. The PCs could also maybe just use the dodge action.
But careful, you don't want your PCs with alert in following situation:
All alert PCs go first and have no clue what is up and do nothing, then all creatures with low initiative appear and immediately attack. That would make high initiative a penalty instead of a bonus.
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