D&D 5E Alertness & initative Query

[Hriston]

I believe that surprise happens outside of initiative, or after, but disregarding initiative.

Initiative actually plays an important role in how surprise works. It tells you how long you are surprised. You are surprised from the beginning of combat until the end of your first turn in initiative order.

The PHB says that you compare the stealth roll of the ambusher with the Passive perception of the ambushed.

In this case, you roll for the bulletes, and compare that to the Passive perception of the players. Those who have a PP under the rolled number are surprised, and cannot take their first turn of combat. Basically just "Lose a turn" in the initiative order, and wait until it rolls around again. Any players who have a PP over the rolled number fight in whatever order they got for initiative.

A minor correction: A hidden creature also remains unnoticed in the event of a tie.

On the other hand, if the entire party has the Alert feat, this is all meaningless. It states you cannot be surprised while conscious, so you simply don't get Surprised.

A Stealth/Perception contest is still useful for determining if the party detects the bullettes before they come out into the open.

 

[Hriston]

Its a difficult situation actually and my only problem with the alert feat: PC acting before anything happens...

This isn't actually a problem. It's important to remember why you are using the combat rules in the first place. Some creature (in this case the land sharks) is taking hostile action against another creature (the party). Once it has been established that fictional situation is occurring (by telling the players an attack from the bullettes erupting from the ground is taking place), only then is it appropriate to introduce combat rules (rolling initiative, etc.)

Another concept that's helpful to remember is combat divides the minute into ten segments, called rounds, and during each round every participant has a turn. Those turns are dealt with in initiative order, but that doesn't mean creatures are waiting until their turn comes up to act. I like to make the distinction between the commencement of movement and action and its resolution. I think initiative order belongs more properly to the resolution side of the equation, that is creatures will all try to act at roughly the same time (especially at the beginning of combat) but their actions will complete in the order of initiative.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah. Another solution.

Using combat rules strictly however, The first sign of a bulette could be them using their unburrow attack on the PCs. And it may then happen that people with slower initiative may react before those with higher initiative. Even though you now have a solution: Beginning the combat eith bulettrs bursting out of the ground and have them finish their action in initiative order, the situation may still be difficult to deal with when it happens first time on your table. This is why such kind of questions are asked in the first place. And it has taken me a while to find my two solutions, because I want anilities you chose to take be a strict bonus not a penalty sometimes.

 

[Hriston]

Yeah. Another solution.

Using combat rules strictly however, The first sign of a bulette could be them using their unburrow attack on the PCs.

I would argue that's not a strict use of the combat rules for the reason that you're beginning combat part way through the first round thus "initiative purging" the PCs.

And it may then happen that people with slower initiative may react before those with higher initiative.

The reason this is happening is you are starting combat before anything has happened. When the hidden creatures begin to attack, but before that attack has landed, is when combat should be considered to have started.

Even though you now have a solution: Beginning the combat eith bulettrs bursting out of the ground and have them finish their action in initiative order, the situation may still be difficult to deal with when it happens first time on your table. This is why such kind of questions are asked in the first place. And it has taken me a while to find my two solutions, because I want anilities you chose to take be a strict bonus not a penalty sometimes.

This isn't a problem with the feat, though. It's a problem with the way the DM is running combat. Starting combat before a creature is in the process of taking hostile action against another creature causes all sorts of problems, even without the presence of a feat like Alert.

 

[Flamestrike]

Example. A party is wandering the underdark. A pack of bulletes burrow from the earth and surprise the party.

Pretty unlikey they are going to get surprise regardless of any other factors. Cruddy Dex score and no stealth proficiency.

The party in this case also have alertness making them immune to surprise so its a moot point.

For simplicity, say the Party rolled 20 for initiative, snd the monsters 10. If the party all had Alertness, does that mean they can react before the monsters can even attack on with their "supposed" ambush of the party ?

Yes, thats exactly what it means. You first determine surprise (there cant be in this case as the whole party are Alert). Then you narrate it (as the DM) as something like: The Bulettes vibrations tipping off the alert PC's, and then describe them bursting bursting out of the ground and letting loose a roar and a snarl! This is what intiaties combat.

You then roll initiative.

Then the alert PCs (who go first in teh combat on round 1) get to wail on them before they get a turn. They burst out, the PCs move and attack, then the Bulettes react.

You could instead just have the vibrations tip off the party and force them all to ready actions.

 

[FrogReaver]

DM should start combat at an acceptable point. A perfect point in this combat may be right as the enemy is coming up out of the ground. Such an action may surprise normal party members but the extra alert would be able to react as it was coming up out of the ground.

(I find it best to avoid resolving monster attacks on players out of combat).

1. The enemy begins to emerge
2. Combat starts and initiative is rolled
3. Any players without alert are surprised and lose their first turn
4. Some players are so swift they attack it and move away as it is coming out of the ground.
5. Some players were were aware of it coming out but couldn't move away first.
6. Some were totally surprised and couldn't do anything.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would argue that's not a strict use of the combat rules for the reason that you're beginning combat part way through the first round thus "initiative purging" the PCs.



The reason this is happening is you are starting combat before anything has happened. When the hidden creatures begin to attack, but before that attack has landed, is when combat should be considered to have started.



This isn't a problem with the feat, though. It's a problem with the way the DM is running combat. Starting combat before a creature is in the process of taking hostile action against another creature causes all sorts of problems, even without the presence of a feat like Alert.

And sometimes hidden creatures don't show themselves before they attack by using a ranged weapon etc. And yes you are right. A DM problem, but a common one. An it takes a while to wrap your head around that concept.

 

[Flamestrike]

And sometimes hidden creatures don't show themselves before they attack by using a ranged weapon etc.

PCs who roll higher initiative hear the creak of the bow being pulled back.

They are 'alert' remember.

On thier turn, if the monster is hidden, the PC can take the Search action to find it. Or do whatever else.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Hmmm. A possible solution... but one that does not really make sense if the shooter is 150 ft away. And in a zone of silence and invisible.
Yes, in actual play it works out most of the time. You still have to be careful and it does make everything a bit more complicated. But it is no D&D 5e inherent problem. Alert is always difficult to handle. You always need to be aware of that feat to not start combat at a wrong point.
It indeed is reasonable to have the alert character notice that something is wrong... but the bow pulled back? Have you pulled a bow back in real life? It certainly does not make the sound it does in video games...

 

[Flamestrike]

Hmmm. A possible solution... but one that does not really make sense if the shooter is 150 ft away. And in a zone of silence and invisible.

Pretty extreme corner case though isnt it?

And even then 'You get a bad feeling that youre about to be attacked - roll initiative'

Or even:

John Matrix: Keep an eye out, they'll be coming. You're downwind, the air currents might tip them off
Jackson: Downwind?
[looks at Matrix like he's crazy]
Jackson: You think I could smell them coming?
John Matrix: I did.