All the different Dragon species ... of the same name

[Cheesegreetings]

Hello everybody,

I've lurked and watched this forum and the conversions going on for a while now, but this is the first time I've had a question to ask. (There doesn't seem to be an introductions subforum, so Hello! I hope I'm in the right subforum.)

I've been following the Converting True Dragons thread and I keep a list of all the types of dragons with their sources and how they're related. I'm asking for help (kind of like those All the Different Types of Elves/Dwarves/Halflings threads) with some dragons that share the same names.

So far the dragons I'm still not clear on are these -- I'm trying to find out how many separate kinds there are and how they differ:

Aquatic Dragon -- Dragon#134 -- lawful evil, wingless, electrocuting cloud breath weapon
Aquatic Dragon -- Bestiary of Krynn -- a giant seahorse?
Aquatic Dragon II -- Dangerous Denizens -- ??
Brown/Great Desert Dragon -- Old Empires, 2E Monstrous Manual, Monsters of Faerûn -- Mulhorandi burrowing, flightless, acid-breathing dragon, neutral evil
Brown/Amber Dragon -- BECMI Master Set -- Mystaran chaotic "gemstone" counterpart to Gold Dragons, flesh-rotting breath weapon
Brown/Amber/Tiger's Eye Dragon -- Rules Cyclopedia -- ??
Brown/Amber Dragon/Draco auburnis forestus -- Monstrous Compendium Annual 3 (as amber), Dragon#38 (as brown) -- Are these two different dragons, or the same dragon?
Grey Dragon -- Dragon#62 -- ??
Gray Dragon -- Dragon#146 -- a template?
Jade Dragon (Neutral) -- Monstrous Compendium Annual 1 -- true neutral, like a cross between an Emerald Dragon and a Lung
Jade Dragon -- BECMI Master Set, Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix -- Mystaran neutral (good) "gemstone" counterpart to Green Dragons, poison gas/rotting disease breath weapon
Jade Dragon -- Rules Cyclopedia -- ??
Sand Dragon -- Dragon#134 -- ??
Sand Dragon -- Sandstorm (as sand), 4E Draconomicon (as brown) -- ??


Also,

I've made a list of all the ones I could find including the ones that were already identified as being different kinds:

Amber/Brown Dragon—Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three (as amber), Dragon #038 (as brown)
Amber/Brown/Tiger's Eye Dragon—Rules Cyclopedia
Brown Dragon—Monsters of Faerûn + Player's Guide to Faerûn web enhancement

The above MCA3 Amber Dragon and the #038 Auburn/Brown dragon have separate conversions in the Creature Catalogue, although they appear to be almost identical. Their breath weapons and SLAs are just slightly different.

 

[Cleon]

Hello everybody,

I've lurked and watched this forum and the conversions going on for a while now, but this is the first time I've had a question to ask. (There doesn't seem to be an introductions subforum, so Hello! I hope I'm in the right subforum.)

I've been following the Converting True Dragons thread and I keep a list of all the types of dragons with their sources and how they're related. I'm asking for help (kind of like those All the Different Types of Elves/Dwarves/Halflings threads) with some dragons that share the same names.

So far the dragons I'm still not clear on are these -- I'm trying to find out how many separate kinds there are and how they differ:

Oh boy, this is going to get complicated. I've been trying to sort out the different D&D Dragons myself over the last few weeks.

Aquatic Dragon -- Dragon#134 -- lawful evil, wingless, electrocuting cloud breath weapon
Aquatic Dragon -- Bestiary of Krynn -- a giant seahorse??
Aquatic Dragon II -- Dangerous Denizens -- ?

The Dragon #134 and Bestiary of Krynn Aquatic Dragons are definitely separate species. The former, as you point out, is LE and has an electric cloud breath weapon.

The Dragonlance Aquatic Dragon is Chaotic Good (so is diametrically opposite in alignment) and has a cone of slowing cold as a breath weapon.

By "Dangerous Denizens", do you mean the Kenzer & Company book? If so, that's outside the Creature Catalog's bailiwick - we don't convert "missing monsters" from third-party sources.

Brown/Great Desert Dragon -- Old Empires, 2E Monstrous Manual, Monsters of Faerûn -- Mulhorandi burrowing, flightless, acid-breathing dragon, neutral evil
Brown/Amber Dragon -- BECMI Master Set -- Mystaran chaotic "gemstone" counterpart to Gold Dragons, flesh-rotting breath weapon
Brown/Amber/Tiger's Eye Dragon -- Rules Cyclopedia -- ??
Brown/Amber Dragon/Draco auburnis forestus -- Monstrous Compendium Annual 3 (as amber), Dragon#38 (as brown) -- Are these two different dragons, or the same dragon?

The MCA3 Amber and Dragon #38 Brown are different dragons.

There are way too many Brown Dragons, but I've boiled in down to five varieties, as follows.

1: The Dragon #37 Brown Dragon - a forest dwelling neutral dragon that casts Druid spells and breathes fire or faerie fire. The Enworld conversion's called the Auburn Dragon.

2: BECMI Amber/Brown Dragon from the Rules Cyclopedia and D&D Master Set.

3: The Forgotten Realms Brown Dragon from the 2E Monstrous Manual and FR10 Old Empires. This desert dwelling dragon is updated to 3E in Monsters of Faerûn and appears to be the "default" Brown Dragon.
3a: The AD&D Amber/Brown Dragon from the 2E Mystaran Monstrous Compendium is practically the same as the "standard" Monstrous Manual Brown Dragon, so is very different from the BECMI Amber/Brown Dragon. Which is why I want to convert it!

4: The MCA3 Amber Dragon - Another forest dwelling dragon, but one with a breath weapon that encases opponents in amber. Not the same as the Dragon #37 Brown Dragon.

5: The 4E Brown Dragon - this desert-dwelling dragon from the Fourth Edition Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons is the same as the 3E Sand Dragon in Sandstorm. It can fly, unlike the FR10 Brown Dragon and Dragon #134 Sand Dragon, both of which have similar shapes and habitat.

Grey Dragon -- Dragon#62 -- ??
Gray Dragon -- Dragon#146 -- a template?

The Dragon #62 Grey Dragon is not a species, but a unique individual called Rahab. We might get around to converting him as an Epic Level Monster sometime.

The Dragon #146 Gray Dragon is its own species. It's not eligible for a CC conversion since it features in the Bestiary of Krynn. Unfortunately it doesn't get a proper writeup in that source (no paralysis effect on its breath weapon? The very idea!).

Jade Dragon (Neutral) -- Monstrous Compendium Annual 1 -- true neutral, like a cross between an Emerald Dragon and a Lung
Jade Dragon -- BECMI Master Set, Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix -- Mystaran neutral (good) "gemstone" counterpart Green Dragons, poison gas/rotting disease breath weapon
Jade Dragon -- Rules Cyclopedia -- ?

The Mystaran Jade Dragon in the Rules Cyclopedia, Master Set and MCA1 is the same dragon, as indicated by its flesh-rotting & disease causing breath weapon. We're missing the "disease" from the CC conversion but I'd like to add it in.

The MCA1 Neutral Jade Dragon is a different species with a sonic breath weapon.

Sand Dragon -- Dragon#134 -- ??
Sand Dragon -- Sandstorm (as sand), 4E Draconomicon (as brown) -- ??

These appear to be separate species, since the Dragon #134 version cannot fly and has a different breath weapon. I think we need to convert it for the CC.

Also,

The above MCA3 Amber Dragon and the #038 Auburn/Brown dragon have separate conversions in the Creature Catalogue, although they appear to be almost identical. Their breath weapons and SLAs are just slightly different.

Yes, they are rather similar - both can wildshape and cast druid spells. There's more than a slightly different between their breath weapons though.

Hmm, our conversion of the MCA3 Amber seems to be missing the "magnetize" special attack of the original monster. We should consider adding that in. They also attack with a "beak-like prow" instead of biting with their teeth, but that can still be considered a bite attack in 3E terms - although it could get a mention in the conversion.

 

[Cheesegreetings]

Thank you very much Cleon, that's very helpful! You cleared it all up for me.

By "Dangerous Denizens", do you mean the Kenzer & Company book?

I don't know. It's one of the sources listed in the World of Sulerin monster index for an Aquatic Dragon, but the Sulerin entries don't always seem to keep all the homonym dragon species separate.

3a: The AD&D Amber/Brown Dragon from the 2E Mystaran Monstrous Compendium is practically the same as the "standard" Monstrous Manual Brown Dragon, so is very different from the BECMI Amber/Brown Dragon. Which is why I want to convert it!

Mystara alone has two Brown and two Amber dragons!

Looking more at the Auburn and Amber Dragons, I can see now how they're different.

The Dragon #146 Gray Dragon is its own species. It's not eligible for a CC conversion since it features in the Bestiary of Krynn. Unfortunately it doesn't get a proper writeup in that source (no paralysis effect on its breath weapon? The very idea!).

Huh. Are these Gray Dragons (and the Purple/Energy, Orange/Sodium, Yellow/Salt, and Faerunian Yellow Dragons) true chromatics? Or just named like chromatics? I always thought the Faerunian Yellow (in the 2E Monstrous Manual) made sense as a true chromatic. But I had figured that Gray, Orange, and Purple must be crossbreeds, rather than their own species... in fact the Orange/Sodium Dragon is in some ways in between the Red and Yellow/Salt Dragons. And none of the Brown Dragons seem chromatic at all (unless the Sandstorm one is, I don't know what it's like.)

 

[Cleon]

Thank you very much Cleon, that's very helpful! You cleared it all up for me.

Glad to be of help.

I don't know. It's one of the sources listed in the World of Sulerin monster index for an Aquatic Dragon, but the Sulerin entries don't always seem to keep all the homonym dragon species separate.

I usually use Echohawk's Index. It's pretty complete up to early 4th edition. It's still a work in progress - he's said he's got a long list of updates it needs.

Mystara alone has two Brown and two Amber dragons!

The Mystaran Brown Dragon is the same monster as the Mystaran Amber Dragon, so there's only two. The BECMI Amber/Brown is a different dragon to the AD&D Mystaran Amber/Brown. The former is a CE counterpart to a gold dragon with two nasty breath weapons, the latter is Mystara's version of the "standard" Brown Dragon.

Huh. Are these Gray Dragons (and the Purple/Energy, Orange/Sodium, Yellow/Salt, and Faerunian Yellow Dragons) true chromatics? Or just named like chromatics? I always thought the Faerunian Yellow (in the 2E Monstrous Manual) made sense as a true chromatic. But I had figured that Gray, Orange, and Purple must be crossbreeds, rather than their own species... in fact the Orange/Sodium Dragon is in some ways in between the Red and Yellow/Salt Dragons. And none of the Brown Dragons seem chromatic at all (unless the Sandstorm one is, I don't know what it's like.)

It depends on what source you go by.

The Dragonlance Gray Dragon is an offshoot of the White Dragon that was changed by the Chaos powers of the Greygem, making them more intelligent, increasing their magical skills, and adding a paralyzing effect to their freezing breath weapon. Its original AD&D version (Dragon #146) says it's a member of "evil dragonkind" but doesn't name it as a Chromatic. The 3E version (the "Grey" Dragon in Bestiary of Krynn) is a subentry of the Frost Dragon, which is a Chaos Dragon, so it seems likely the Dragonlance Gray Dragon is a member of the Chaos Dragons rather than the Chromatic Dragons - they seem to be affiliated with Father Chaos far more than Tiamat.

According to their original articles by Richard Alan Lloyd (1E in Dragon #65, 2E in Dragon #248), the Orange (Sodium), Purple (Energy), and Yellow (Salt) are all Chromatic Dragons. The Orange (Sodium) is a cross between a Yellow and Red Chromatic Dragon and a Purple (Energy) is a cross between a Red and a Blue.

The Yellow Dragons are a bit more problematic. The Yellow (Salt) Dragon has wings in its 1E illustration (Dragon #65) but is wingless in its 2E illustration (Dragon #248). Neither of their descriptions mentions whether they have wings or not, but both versions can fly. The 3E Yellow Dragon in Dragon Compendium I is a wingless dragon and the article specifies it's the same dragon as the Dragon #65/#248 Yellow, so the easiest explanation is that the wings of the 1E illustration are an artistic error.

The Forgotten Realms Yellow Dragon from the 2E Draconomicon and Monstrous Manual definitely has wings both in its picture and description. It's quite similar to the 2E Yellow (Salt) but there are enough differences to merit it being a separate Dragon - its breath weapon does the same damage, but it only causes blindness as a secondary effect (instead of the blindness + agony of the Salt Dragon). It has different spell-like abilities. Also, the 2E version only has a land and fly speed - the Yellow (Salt) Dragon can burrow and swim as well, and has water breathing to allow unlimited stays underwater. We added a burrow speed to our conversion of the Monstrous Manual Yellow (IIRC because of their fondness for burying themselves to ambush victims).

The Forgotten Realm Yellow Dragon's description says they have "long been predicted by sages (based on theories of primary colors)" - which is a pretty clear reference to the Alan Lloyd's Dragon articles using a "color wheel" argument for the existence of an Orange, Purple & Yellow Dragon. That's some slight evidence for it being a Chromatic Dragon, but it's worth noting that the Monstrous Manual does not lists it as "Dragon, Chromatic - Dragon, Yellow", but only as "Dragon, Yellow".

The 4E Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons list Brown, Grey and Purple Dragons as Chromatics, but these are different dragons to the ones above. The 4E Brown is the 3E Sand Dragon from Sandstorm, the 4E Grey is the same as earlier editions' Fang Dragon, and the 4E Purple is earlier editions' Deep Dragon.

That means the Sandstorm Sand Dragon is officially a Chromatic, at least in one edition of the game.

 

[Cheesegreetings]

Thanks again, Cleon.

I usually use Echohawk's Index. It's pretty complete up to early 4th edition. It's still a work in progress - he's said he's got a long list of updates it needs.

I've read that it's more complete and accurate than Sulerin. I downloaded it but I'm still absorbing the dragon entries.

The Mystaran Brown Dragon is the same monster as the Mystaran Amber Dragon, so there's only two. The BECMI Amber/Brown is a different dragon to the AD&D Mystaran Amber/Brown. The former is a CE counterpart to a gold dragon with two nasty breath weapons, the latter is Mystara's version of the "standard" Brown Dragon.

I had assumed that all the BECMI "gem" dragons were Mystaran.

According to their original articles by Richard Alan Lloyd (1E in Dragon #65, 2E in Dragon #248), the Orange (Sodium), Purple (Energy), and Yellow (Salt) are all Chromatic Dragons. The Orange (Sodium) is a cross between a Yellow and Red Chromatic Dragon and a Purple (Energy) is a cross between a Red and a Blue.

The Yellow Dragons are a bit more problematic. The Yellow (Salt) Dragon has wings in its 1E illustration (Dragon #65) but is wingless in its 2E illustration (Dragon #248). Neither of their descriptions mentions whether they have wings or not, but both versions can fly. The 3E Yellow Dragon in Dragon Compendium I is a wingless dragon and the article specifies it's the same dragon as the Dragon #65/#248 Yellow, so the easiest explanation is that the wings of the 1E illustration are an artistic error.

It makes sense to me that the Purple and Orange are crossbreeds, but the Yellows are pretty awkward. A true Chromatic should have wings, but when I compared the converted versions for the Salt-Yellow, Faerunian-Yellow, and Orange, the Salt-Yellow seemed a more likely progenitor for the Orange:

1. Orange and Salt-Yellow share an affinity for water and marshes.
2. The Orange "napalm" breath weapon seems more likely to come from fire plus acidic salt, rather than fire plus sand.
3. Reds are CE and Oranges are NE. Salt-Yellows are LE, but Faerunian Yellows are CE like Reds.
4. Oranges and Salt-Yellows appear to have the same HD advancement. Both have fewer HD than Faerunian Yellows. Reds are resumably huge, so crossing one with a Faerunian Yellow should result in a dragon in-between.
5. Oranges and Salt-Yellows have 3 SLAs in common.

Perhaps the 2E artist made the mistake in not giving Salt-Yellows wings, sort of like the 2E Gold has no wings and the 2E Shadow has only 2 legs. It seems possible the author of the article in Dragon #65 intended the Salt-Yellow to be the Yellow ancestor to the Sodium-Orange, and then the 2E and 3E converters forgot or didn't agree.

 

[Cleon]

I had assumed that all the BECMI "gem" dragons were Mystaran.

They are, it's just that some of the AD&D versions of the Mystaran Gemstone Dragons are so different from the BECMI version they're effectively different monsters.

It makes sense to me that the Purple and Orange are crossbreeds, but the Yellows are pretty awkward. A true Chromatic should have wings, but when I compared the converted versions for the Salt-Yellow, Faerunian-Yellow, and Orange, the Salt-Yellow seemed a more likely progenitor for the Orange:

Well the salt-breathing Yellow Dragon is the ancestor to the Orange and Blue according to the articles it appeared in, and at least it has wings in its original 1E version.

Perhaps the 2E artist made the mistake in not giving Salt-Yellows wings, sort of like the 2E Gold has no wings and the 2E Shadow has only 2 legs. It seems possible the author of the article in Dragon #65 intended the Salt-Yellow to be the Yellow ancestor to the Sodium-Orange, and then the 2E and 3E converters forgot or didn't agree.

Yes, it's sometimes best to overlook the illustration when it disagrees with the text.

It's sometimes possible to rationalize or handwave the problem away - in the Shadow Dragon's case it could just be posing with upraised "arms" in front of its wings and the viewer can't tell them apart because they're in shadow.

 

[Wolf72]

Grey Dragons

my 2 stl pcs ...

Grey dragons are mentioned as a sidebar for Frost dragons because, according to the text, all of the grey dragons became frost dragons.

Otherwise I'd definitely throw them in as a sub-species of white dragons and therefore chromatic.

That pesky greygem does as it does, though. I'm sure you could justify them as either and be happy with it.

 

[Cleon]

my 2 stl pcs ...

Grey dragons are mentioned as a sidebar for Frost dragons because, according to the text, all of the grey dragons became frost dragons.

Otherwise I'd definitely throw them in as a sub-species of white dragons and therefore chromatic.

That pesky greygem does as it does, though. I'm sure you could justify them as either and be happy with it.

The point is that the third edition Dragons of Krynn put Frost Dragons in the "Dragons of Chaos" category rather than the "Chromatic Dragons" category, so at some point the White/Grey/Frost lineage must have moved from one to the other.

the question is when did this happen - did they become Father Chaos's children when they were exposed to the Greygem and became Grey Dragons that turned away from Takhisis, or when Chaos was released and they contacted him and became Frost Dragons?

There doesn't seem to be a definite statement anywhere that Gray Dragons are Chromatic. Maybe they are "half chromatic" dragons like the Amphi Dragon, except instead of being half-green and half-sea they are half-white and half-chaos?

It seems significant that the official 3E stats of a Gray Dragon don't give it the (Chaos) subtype, unlike the Frost Dragon, which suggests they are not Chaos Dragons - maybe because they hadn't been completely transformed by Father Chaos like the Frost Dragons?

 

[Wolf72]

my vote goes chromatic, but overall it's just semantics. Before the summer of chaos I'd put grey dragons under the thumb of takhisis ... and then after the summer of chaos they don't exist anymore.

(note, I wasn't a fan of 5th age or it's story ... in my world grey dragons are still around ... more of note IF my world and rpg life ever gets started again.)

 

[Cleon]

my vote goes chromatic, but overall it's just semantics. Before the summer of chaos I'd put grey dragons under the thumb of takhisis ... and then after the summer of chaos they don't exist anymore.

The sources are a bit contradictory, but they don't suggest Gray Dragons were very obedient to the Dark Queen.

The original Dragon Magazine versions says "Gray dragons are not known to have joined the forces of the Queen of Darkness during the War of the Lance" and sometimes attacked elements of the White Dragon army.

The Bestiary of Krynn version says they served Takhisis "to a limited extent" in the 3rd Dragonwar but ran away from a battle and did not heed her call in the Age of Despair.

(note, I wasn't a fan of 5th age or it's story ... in my world grey dragons are still around ... more of note IF my world and rpg life ever gets started again.)

Well I don't run a Dragonlance campaign so have no chronological reason not to use both Grays and Frosts in the game.

IIRC, the Gray Dragons had to answer Chaos's summons to be transformed into Frost Dragons, which implies that any who were unable to do so (due to being trapped, enslaved, etc.) would have remained untransformed. So there could be a few Grays left over.