Alternate Bard

[Midnight Dawns]

Well the basic idea is to make a bard that is closer to the bard of epic fantasies than the standard dnd bard. Thus far Artoomis seem the closest to what I am looking for, though I will still take a look at the prestige classes. The best examples of what I am trying to make are Thom Merrilin from Wheel of Time and Mar Lon from the Last of the Renshai trilogy.

 

[Mistwell]

Well the basic idea is to make a bard that is closer to the bard of epic fantasies than the standard dnd bard. Thus far Artoomis seem the closest to what I am looking for, though I will still take a look at the prestige classes. The best examples of what I am trying to make are Thom Merrilin from Wheel of Time and Mar Lon from the Last of the Renshai trilogy.

Thom Merrilin has high ranks in knowledge (nobility and royalty), gather information, knowledge (arcane), several perform skills, and has the standard bardic knowledge ability. He is charismatic, and good with throwing daggers.

I'm really not sure how that is different than the standard bard/rogue.

What Artoomis described sounds a bit like the Akashic class from Monte Cook's Arcane Evolved to me. Or perhaps the Factotum from Dungeonscape.

What exactly are you going for? Better diplomatic things? Better knowledge things? Better combat abilities? Better healing abilities? What kinds of things match your image of this epic fantasy bard?

 

[two]

First, the XP system is not based upon combat, but upon overcoming challenges. Avoiding combat can give just as many XP as winning the battle.

Second, the concept is character who avoids comabt, and, when pressed, serves as support for others and does not actually engage in personal combat.

This can be a very workable and fun concept, but is not for everyone.

Oh I know, it CAN be fun. But is it fun for the whole group?

Basically, combat is something all the PC's in your group can do to some extent. When the GM throws a monster your way, you can all participate in overcoming the challenge. They all get some satisfaction in the result.

When you use your insanely great bardic skills to overcome a challenge in a clever way, that's super. But it is essentially a singular achievement; yes, the party might help some with tracking, or some spells, but mostly it's the high skill guy using his high skills to do something, while the rest of the party watches.

That's fine once in a while, but it gets really old when repeated too much, and frankly, a lot of challenges simply can't be overcome without breaking some skulls. Particularly if you are playing pregenerated adventures.

Believe me, I'm all for being sneaky and overcoming with stealth/planning. But I also know from experience that that often does not make the most fun session... for the group as a whole. It's fun for the central planning guy with skills... the rest of the people? Not so much.

I always want all the PC's to be able to contribute in combat in a meaningful way (doing direct damage), even the band-aid healer. The bard does not have to shine in combat... but should not be completely outclassed to be point of ignorability, either.

 

[CustosObscurus]

Midnight is a friend of mine, and in fact he was asking this question for me.

Let me make a comparison to try and get the feel I want across: In the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, the feel was a historical fiction with a few, light supernatural elements in it. Yes, there were zombies and curses, but there weren't any fireballs or gods incarnate or anything like that. The second and third movies, however, were mostly historical fantasy, involving magical locations, giant sea beasts, gods, and immortal guardians of the sea.

Basically, I want to create a bardic character that fits the first description better than the second. Yes, he should have mystical capabilities of suggestion and distraction, but I don't want blatant spells. I want him to be more subtle, if that makes sense.

I want him to be a capable combatant, but the main focus is skill-monkey. I like the idea of the Marshal's aura abilities. The character I was planning was a deserter from his homeland's military who decided to wander the world, so it would make sense that he had those types of abilities. Basically I want Jack of all Trades, Master of None to be this guy's motto: lots of skill points and useful in a fight, but I don't want him to be a frontline fighter on par with a barbarian or fighter (though he can overshadow rogues on skill points; he won't have Sneak Attack or trapfinding or any of the other abilities rogues get).


EDIT: I also really like the idea of adding bard class levels to skill checks. That's similar to the Bardic Knack alternate ability in PHBII, which replaces Bardic Knowledge, but basically allows the Bard to pretend it had a number of ranks in a skill equal to half his levels in Bard if that exceeds the number of ranks you actually have in the skill.

 

[Mistwell]

I really think the Akashic or Factotum is what you are headed towards.

Here is the Akashic (though there are additional options in some other books):

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_MCAE_Akashic

There are a couple of spells mentioned that you don't have listed (they do not cast spells, the abilities just use a couple of spell descriptions as shorthand). I think we can get a list of what those spells do if you want to know more about it (it's the loresight and secret spells. Loresights give you full background information on an object, creature, or location, similar to getting a REALLY good knowledge check roll, and I forget what the secrets give you).

I do not have a link to the Factotum itself, but here is a handbook being put together on the topic:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=791436