An Alternative to DEATH

[77IM]

Just a word of warning:

The group I DM is now level 10, we have 4-5 PCs per session, and one warlord and one paladin as the healers. They are indestructible. Even when I throw grossly unfair encounters at them, they have never run out of healing.

So I'd be wary of any rule that makes it easier for PCs to survive.

-- 77IM

 

[Nebten]

You can use RPGA's method with dealing with death since they deal in a series of one shot games. After all, the chance of failure and "death" is what makes the game exciting.

[sblock=Character Death]

• Pay the component cost for the ritual. If the group chooses this option, the cost should be divided evenly amongst the group (500 gp for heroic tier, 5,000 gp for paragon tier, and 50,000 gp for epic tier). Using a source outside the group to cast the ritual costs 20% more than

the component cost. Total cost when using an outside
source is 600 gp for heroic tier, 6,000 gp for paragon tier,
and 60,000 gp for epic tier. A PC that dies and chooses
this method of return gains full (or half, if the party was
defeated) experience points from the encounter in which
the character died, but no experience points for any encounters that were missed while the character was
dead. If there’s still more of the adventure remaining, the
PC continues to earn experience as normal, and receives a
normal cut of the rewards at the end of the adventure.​

•Invoke the Death Charity clause. If the group cannot
afford to pay for the ritual, doesn’t desire to pay for it, or doesn’t have access to the body, the PC can choose to return back to life at the end of the adventure. Doing so forfeits all rewards (including treasure and story rewards) earned for the adventure except experience points gained prior to the character’s death (the character receives the experience point award for the encounter in which they died). The PC cannot participate in the same adventure a second time.​

[/sblock]

 

[Garthanos]

Just a word of warning:

The group I DM is now level 10, we have 4-5 PCs per session, and one warlord and one paladin as the healers. They are indestructible. Even when I throw grossly unfair encounters at them, they have never run out of healing.

So I'd be wary of any rule that makes it easier for PCs to survive.

-- 77IM

I think the original poster, might actually want it certain they will survive ;-), but even moreso he wants play to stay interesting for a character even if they are "out of the fight". That seems the nature of his house rule.

House rules can be explicitly defined to affect the tone of the campaign for instance the wound house rules I mentioned above maintain a rather cinematic flavor of heroic perseverance without making things grittier than the players/dm wants.

For instance making the berzerk rule I mentioned was designed to make the remainder of the fight go faster and if you spend a healing surge to reuse a daily well hmmm that daily might be a healing power ... and yeah that might not be on target... or it might be that is tone.

I think as a DM you need to pay attention to the composition and nature of your group... and just assuming the default is not useful (unless you are just writing modules).

I mean that group with half being healers, that is going to have an impact on sense of game deadliness.

It occurs to me that half healers might not be abnormal but it might be overly prevalent due to people being used to previous editions of the game.

 

[77IM]

I think the original poster, might actually want it certain they will survive ;-), but even moreso he wants play to stay interesting for a character even if they are "out of the fight". That seems the nature of his house rule.

Well, that is an interesting spin on things... here's how I'd do it.

When you drop to 0 or fewer hit points, you don't fall unconscious, you become crippled. While crippled,

• You are weakened.
• You are slowed.
• You grant combat advantage to all enemies.
• Powers and effects that affect unconscious creatures can affect you.
• You don't make death saving throws.

If you take any damage while crippled, and there is no ally within 10 squares of you who is not crippled, unconscious, or petrified, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you don't make death saving throws, and can be revived as normal.


So... you are still in the game, but kind of suck (so now is the time to use defensive maneuvers, healing powers, utility powers, and Aid Another). But when everyone is crippled, the enemies can then start dropping party members. So a total party wipe is still possible, but the implication is that the group would then be taken captive or something.

-- 77IM

 

[Captain_Commando]

While unconscious, you don't make death saving throws, and can be revived as normal.

Being unconscious still takes the character out of play and as a result the player. That's what I'm trying to avoid. Why pay for a session if you end up twiddling your thumbs for a potentially long length of time?

If a character gets hurt while "disabled", then perhaps a random penalty could be added. The "heroic death throes" rolls could be all beneficial but getting hit could have dire consequences by the time you get up.

Perhaps two separate tables then - one for heroic acts of desperation and one for unfortunate injuries acquired while in a weakened state.

 

[77IM]

Being unconscious still takes the character out of play and as a result the player. That's what I'm trying to avoid. Why pay for a session if you end up twiddling your thumbs for a potentially long length of time?

Unconsciousness is only possible if the entire party is crippled, or if they've abandoned you. So you'll likely only be unconscious for a round or two while the monsters mop up the party. The only alternative I could think of is, once everyone is crippled, they all fall unconscious at once, which seems a little odd and doesn't allow for certain last-minute recoveries.

That's just how I'd do it though. I tend not to like random tables -- if the dropped player wants to contribute, he or she should be able to decide precisely how.

I think the bigger issue is that if there is no chance for the party to fail, then the fight is boring. So one approach you might take is to redefine "failure." Maybe the party can never lose the fight, but the fight might be costly. What sort of cost? Permanent injuries? Failing some quest goal? Loss of a magic item? By analogy, go watch an action movie -- there is never any doubt that the hero will ultimately defeat the bad guy. Why, then, is there tension? Because we don't know what the cost to the hero will be. Will someone the hero cares about be killed? Will his cool magic sword get snapped in half? Will the villain's plan partially succeed, killing thousands instead of millions? If you come up with a system where the party can't fail, you need to put something else important at stake -- reputation, comrades, treasure, pinky fingers, etc.

-- 77IM

 

[Captain_Commando]

Unconsciousness is only possible if the entire party is crippled, or if they've abandoned you. So you'll likely only be unconscious for a round or two while the monsters mop up the party. The only alternative I could think of is, once everyone is crippled, they all fall unconscious at once, which seems a little odd and doesn't allow for certain last-minute recoveries.

That's just how I'd do it though. I tend not to like random tables -- if the dropped player wants to contribute, he or she should be able to decide precisely how.

I think the bigger issue is that if there is no chance for the party to fail, then the fight is boring.

Unconsciousness can last considerably longer than 1 or 2 rounds depending on what happens in the battle. Some players may take a bit longer than others. I don't want players to wait unless they're okay with that. If everyone becomes "disabled" then the battle switches to a narrative or skill challenge where the party is captured or somehow escape but don't complete their objective. The point is to keep every player in the game at any given time.

It was suggested on GitP forums that the players choose what they do while they're "disabled". Perhaps the death saving throw could determine whether or not the heroic death throe succeeds. When they take damage while "disabled" however, a random penalty could still make sense to be applied.

This option is not about party failure, it's about player death/game removal. Living does not always equate to success. The party can survive but still fail depending on the story.

 

[Mythlore]

I just stumbled onto your thread, good Sir, and I think I understand your plight.

Many times, in combat, players go down for the count. To be specific, count the number of turns you haven't done anything because you're unconscious.

Maybe your Ranger character decided he would waltz into the middle of the elves who, a round ago, peppered your party with arrows -- and having strayed from the congealed goo that a group is often suggested to be, you have paid the price. Four elves who are supposed to be better archers than melee'rs have sliced your apart.

Now your turn would come up.

That's the problem. That magical number with your (former) initiative count rolls by, ticks on down past you, and your allies, busy with the serious business in front of them have no way to get to you or help you -- and you have nothing else you can do because you made a decision -- perhaps a novice mistake, perhaps it was just the luck of the draw in the encounter.

--

I, for one, like this idea. When I picked up the FRPG (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide), I found a Channel Divinity feat that I myself said "every Cleric ought to have this". Since a party seems to count on only having one leader (two leaders is a beautiful thing), those few ways to spend your healing surges become the game changer. I found this wonderful feat titled "Berronar's Salve" -- that is, it's a way to keep your character charged. A character who would be dropped to 0 hit points may spend a healing surge -- and that's all you need, sometimes. You come back up with your healing surge (plus 1, because I think the D&D calculation does that, you go to 1 and heal from there) value. The ability to spend your surge as you go down is nearly invaluable. It saves you the move action to rise from prone, as well as keeps the leader from having to burn one of his 2-3/encounter healing powers, since it was a Channel Divinity feat. It occurs you could re-toy this as a way to modify a character's Second Wind to be useable immediately upon reaching 0 hit points -- or upon reaching bloodied -- as a free action, or should we categorize into an immediate (interrupt? no. reaction, most likely, so damage happens first) action.

I like the idea of having a couple of 'group' powers you can do to cheer the party on when your initiative count rolls by, as you sit there, mostly lifeless and helpless. At least you can still be helpful.

Perhaps 1/round you could select from one of three of those effects, chosen when you decide "when I die, this is how I help." There's plenty of ways to story-tell that, I'm sure, and I like that you're heading it off at the pass -- the idea of trying to make the eventuality of unconsciousness a reasonable thing that, although it's not glorious, you don't become a useless burden that has to be healed.

I would be slightly wary of the potential bonuses or effects you could be giving out -- but since it's not FR or other official WotC gaming, I'd say that it's pretty easy to rule these into being. After all, Rule 0 is the best rule of all.

 

[Captain_Commando]

Another option might also be to create actions possible as a "floating ghost".

Things that can be added to the heroic death throes list however could also include personal bonuses that last only until the end of one's next turn in the encounter.

For example, you might roll a +2 bonus to your next attack roll made until the end of your next turn. After regaining positive hit points on or before the next turn, you are able to make that "second winded" attack.