D&D 5E An issue with the Tavern Brawler feat

[Rune]

I must be completely failing to communicate here.

I specifically do not want the Tavern Brawler feat to effectively grant proficiency with all weapons, because that is overpowered and (I am certain) entirely unintended.

No, I see that, I just don't think it is either overpowered or unintentional. At least, not if you rule that the improv weapon rules do not grant proficiency you would otherwise not have. And I think the language of those rules strongly implies that they are not intended to (see my previous post for an explanation why).

 

[Cernor]

If I'm proficient with a greatclub, I could use a greatsword as one and get proficiency. That's without a feat.

I'm bemused by your interpretation of the improvised weapons rules, and this example is the reason why. It seems to me you're interpreting the rules as "If I use a weapon as another weapon, it becomes an improvised weapon" where personally I see it as "If there's a nonweapon object that I use as a weapon that resembles a weapon, for all intents and purposes it is that weapon".

If you're using a greatsword but aren't proficient with it, you aren't able to say "Since I'm proficient with a greatclub but not a greatsword, I should be able to treat this sword as a club and gain proficiency". Treating the greatsword as a greatclub is a great example of why you'd use it as a greatsword (even if you were arguing it's an improvised weapon, it curiously resembles a greatsword and therefore is a greatsword) but not add your proficiency modifier (if you aren't proficient), because you're using it the same way you'd use a greatclub, while someone proficient with it would know the proper way to use it.

Players who pick up an unfamiliar weapon, without any feats or proficiency, have the choice of using the weapon as something they are proficient in (and thus losing access to whatever special features the real weapon has that the thing they're using it as does not - for instance, you could use a halberd as a greatclub, but you would presumably lose the benefit of reach while doing so. With multiple attacks, you could treat the weapon as a greatclub (and get proficiency) in one attack and as a halberd (and get reach, but no proficiency) in another. That's all fine by the basic rules.

This is another example of our differing opinions, and your example, again, is one that I find baffling. You should only have the option of using the weapon as one you're proficient in if the use makes sense for the weapon. A halberd is a head at the end of a long pole -- if you're using the head and arguing it's a greatclub (for whatever reason), the "improvised use" of the weapon makes it resemble a halberd, so it becomes a halberd rather than a greatclub. If you switch the end and argue that you're using it as a greatclub, it more closely resembles a quarterstaff anyway! A long, relatively thin pole used as a long, relatively thin pole makes more sense than using it as a slightly shorter and unevenly thick weighted club... Especially because it would be weighted on the wrong end.

 

[Paraxis]

This is how I see improvised weapons breaking down.

Is an object similar to a weapon on the weapon chart?
>If YES, then use the stats for that weapon damage and proficiency.
>If No, then gain no proficiency bonus to attack and the object does d4 damage plus str mod damage.

Tavern brawler only comes into play if the above answer is NO.

 

[ad_hoc]

This is how I see improvised weapons breaking down.

Is an object similar to a weapon on the weapon chart?
>If YES, then use the stats for that weapon damage and proficiency.
>If No, then gain no proficiency bonus to attack and the object does d4 damage plus str mod damage.

Tavern brawler only comes into play if the above answer is NO.

Then why use improvised weapons? Your unarmed attack already does 1d4. If I hit someone with a table I want to do more than 1d4.

 

[BryonD]

so the GM rules 1d8 damage, proficiency through Tavern Brawler.

I think this is your mistake.
The rules don't say that the improvised weapon is expressly treated as the equivalent weapon. It says it "can" be.

So, let's say your Tavern Brawler wizard is teamed with a fighter.

In the hands of the not-greatclub-proficient wizard, it is an improvised weapon He adds prof and deals 1d6.
In the hands of the greatclub-proficient fighter it is a great club.

Either character could choose to wield as the other weapon. But the fighter has no reason to do so. To him it is certainly a greatclub.
The wizard can keep his prof bonus with his 1d6 proficient weapon OR weild it as a 1d8 greatclub, which he was never proficient with.

 

[chaochou]

This seems pretty clear to me: If I'm proficient with a greatclub, I could use a greatsword as one and get proficiency. That's without a feat.

I don't think the rules mean this in the slightest, if I'm honest. Under no circumstances is a greatsword an improvised weapon. A greatsword is a finely designed and crafted item, specifically intended to be a weapon. There's no improvised to be seen - it couldn't be any less improvised. A greatsword may be an improvised chisel, or an improvised pastry cutter, but no-one could ever claim it was an improvised weapon.

A frying pan is an improvised weapon. So is a chair, a rolling pin, a shovel. None of these things are designed as weapons. Using them as such means re-purposing them from their original design. That is never true when using any weapon as a weapon.

Things whose primary design function is not a weapon can be improvised weapons.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This seems pretty clear to me: If I'm proficient with a greatclub, I could use a greatsword as one and get proficiency. That's without a feat.

I think that's beyond the intent of the rule.

If you're proficient with the greatclub, you could use, say, a tree branch as a greatclub and get proficiency. Or maybe a two-by-four. Or a long bench.

But not a greatsword. A greatsword isn't an improvised weapon similar to a greatclub, it is its own weapon, so you would not have your proficiency bonus on attack rolls with it even if you were "using it as a greatclub" -- because that's not how a greatsword works.

If you pick up a weapon you're not proficient with, it is not an improvised weapon.

So if you're not proficient with a greatclub but you are proficient with improvised weapons, and you pick a greatclub up and start swinging it around, you don't get your proficiency bonus to attacks. But if you're proficient with all improvised weapons, you could pick up a tree branch and then you'd get your proficiency bonus to attacks. And if you're proficient with both, you could pick up a tree branch and, at the DM's option, have it treated like a greatclub, or you could pick up a greatclub, and they'd be equivalent. But if you picked up a greatsword, you wouldn't get your proficiency bonus, since it is neither an improvised weapon, nor a weapon similar to a greatclub.

 

[ad_hoc]

I don't think the rules mean this in the slightest, if I'm honest. Under no circumstances is a greatsword an improvised weapon. A greatsword is a finely designed and crafted item, specifically intended to be a weapon. There's no improvised to be seen - it couldn't be any less improvised. A greatsword may be an improvised chisel, or an improvised pastry cutter, but no-one could ever claim it was an improvised weapon.

A frying pan is an improvised weapon. So is a chair, a rolling pin, a shovel. None of these things are designed as weapons. Using them as such means re-purposing them from their original design. That is never true when using any weapon as a weapon.

Things whose primary design function is not a weapon can be improvised weapons.

I think this comes down to a narrative problem with the concept of Tavern Brawler.

For a tavern brawler, the improvised weapon is better than the weapon it resembles.

 

[Kobold Stew]

No, my point is that the way the Tavern Brawler feat and the Improvised weapons rules are written, there is an unintended interaction that opens up the Tavern Brawler feat to being exploited in ways that were not intended.

No. You need to misread the rules on improvised weapons in order to come to this conclusion.

It goes like this.

By the basic improvised weapon rules, if an improvised weapon resembles an actual weapon you can treat it as an actual weapon. It is still, however, an improvised weapon.

No. "In many cases an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such." If it is treated as a great club, then the relevant proficiency is great club.

However, the rules explicitly state that:
1) Any object that strongly resembles an actual weapon can, if wielded as an improvised weapon, be treated as the actual weapon
2) Tavern Brawlers are proficient with improvised weapons.

The first mistake is in 1). You have inserted "if wielded as an improvised weapon": that is not what the rule says. If you are treating a frying pan as a club (which you can only do with the DM's permission), then the relevant proficiency is club and no longer "improvised weapons".

the second mistake is in the applicability of 2). The feature of the Tavern Brawler feat comes into lay when 1) is not being used, and one would ordinarily not be able to add the proficiency bonus.

I hope this helps -- I do not see this as controversial or borderline in any way.

 

[Iosue]

Regarding your earlier wizard example: you would treat the wooden pillar was a greatclub if the character was proficient with a greatclub. Since the wizard is not proficient, it's treated as an improvised weapon, i.e., it does 1d4 damage, even after you whittle it's handle down. In a sense, Tavern Brawler does provide proficiency with all weapons in that the Brawler can swing or throw any of them, with proficiency and for 1d4 damage.

As for why one would use weapons rather unarmed strike, you can't do piercing, slashing, or fire damage with unarmed strike.