Angel news on Sci Fi Wire

[Sulimo]

Over on Sci Fi Wire, some WB bigwig is reported as saying that Spike will show up in Angel, and that Joss hasn't killed him for good. Also, apparently Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia) WON'T be back. I'll link to the article as soon as I can find it again.

EDIT: here's the link - Levin Talks Spike On Angel

I guess in retrospect it's not really "Spike WILL be back", but "WB wants Spike, and we're pretty sure Joss'll deliver".

There's also a pretty good post-finale interview with Joss about this here:

http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/030523b.asp

 

[John Crichton]

I would like Spike to show up and shake things up a bit, maybe WITHOUT a soul. With no Buffy around we get evil Spike back and EVIL Spike is fun Spike. The amulet (from W&H no less) couldn't have been all good. I'm not thinking Big Bad or anything but a focus on redeeming Spike (evil or not) could be interesting. Spike did everything he did for Buffy, not for the overall good. With her basically out of the picture it would be cool to see a non-souled Vamp in the mix instead of two.

I can just see endless banter between Angel and Spike over Buffy if they are both working on the same team.

But on the flipside, if it is a teamup with Team Angel, I am cool with that. 2 former badasses working once for the forces of darkness are now on the other side working their mojo and exorcizing their personal and literal demons. That works for me as well. But I think evil Spike would be a cool twist and would be a good followup to the antagonist that was Jasmine.

 

[Wayside]

If he had takent he amulet for himself, he'd be in Spike's position, and could be with Buffy...

Nah, Buffy made that choice. Tweren't Angel.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I would like Spike to show up and shake things up a bit, maybe WITHOUT a soul. With no Buffy around we get evil Spike back and EVIL Spike is fun Spike.

Evil Spike would be awesome. Or at least, he should be the wild card, like Connor was: you never really know if he can be trusted. But then again, I didn't think they pulled it off that well when Spike was just hanging around Sunnydale, and would do the mercenary thing once in a while. So hopefully they'll come up with a better angle.

It would be nice if they explored more about why Spike is the same with or without a soul, while Angel is like night-and-day.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Highlander was about immortals, Duncan stayed away from trying to dispense mortal justice.

That's why it was boring.

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

It would be nice if they explored more about why Spike is the same with or without a soul, while Angel is like night-and-day.

I'd hardly say Spike was the same with or without a soul. Imagine ensouled Spike attempting to rape Buffy. Picture him coercing her into lewd acts in a public place within yards of her friends. How about Good Spike tying up Buffy and Drucilla so he could decide which one to kill?

Evil Spike could only view the world through the context of pain and suffering; how much he could inflict and on who. Remember, the whole time before he had a soul, he was also under the power of the restraining brain chip. Unable to victimize people, he wrapped his life around the one person he could still hurt: Buffy. His "love" for Buffy wasn't real, and he knew it, but he wanted it to be real all the same. That's why he fought to get his soul back.

Angel never earned his soul, it was inflicted on him. That's why the transition between Angel and Angelus was so terrifying, because Angelus had been biding his time for decades waiting to be unleashed on the world again.

In retrospect, I kind of find Spike to be a much more believable character than Angel, although I enjoy watching both. I've always had a hard time understanding why exactly Angel became such a superhero, when he wasn't even a particularly nice human before he was sired. After he gets his soul back, he basically wanders the world for 100 years as a bum, feeding on rats and dead bodies like a parasite, and one day sees Buffy and *poof*, he's a good guy. Although I guess that's how it worked for Spike too. Could make for some interesting dialogue between Spike and Angel next season.

I'm rambling. Time for bed.

 

[Wayside]

He was in love with Buffy long before he could hurt her. That didn't happen until after she was resurrected. With the shot of him in season 5's finale, after Buffy dove from Glory's tower, I don't see how we can doubt how genuine his love was.

Also, we never even hear for sure why he can hurt her after she's brought back. She thinks at first it's because she came back wrong, but Tara says that isn't it. I think it makes more sense to say that he can 'hurt' her because he isn't; he loves her, and the chip works off of intention. When he hits her he doesn't really have the intention to hurt her. He can't. So it's not a case of 'he loves her because he can hurt her'; it's a case of 'he can hurt her because he loves her'.

Chun-tzu's right. I've often wondered the same thing, and Spike's having worked to get his soul back (and the slower transition) is definitely a possibility. But Angel and Angelus are two completely different people; Angel doesn't even remember everything Angelus has done, and it takes time after the change for any memories to filter through to him. Spike, on the other hand, is the same person at his core. He does plenty of bad with his soul too (what with being brainwashed and all). Part of his getting over the First's brainwashing is embracing his violent side though (after being reprimanded by Buffy for his uselessness after getting his soul back), and it's very clear that he's still the Spike that killed Wood's mother. She chose the cause, and all that.

I'm not sure I want this explained though, as explanations tend to look like backtracking.

 

[danzig138]

She thinks at first it's because she came back wrong, but Tara says that isn't it.

That's not what Tara said. Tara said Buffy came back with , what was it, the equivalent of a molecular sunburn. . .in other words, not different in an important way, but just enough to throw off Spike's chip.

 

[Wayside]

That's not what Tara said. Tara said Buffy came back with , what was it, the equivalent of a molecular sunburn. . .in other words, not different in an important way, but just enough to throw off Spike's chip.

I.e., she didn't come back 'wrong.' The molecular sunburn was one guess, but, like I said, we never hear for sure.

The point though was that Spike loved Buffy before he knew he could hurt her, so the former couldn't have depended on the latter.

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

I.e., she didn't come back 'wrong.' The molecular sunburn was one guess, but, like I said, we never hear for sure.

You can call it a "guess" all you want, but it ain't necessarily so. Tara said it WAS the above, she wasn't making a hypothesis.

Not that I don't like your explanation better. I thought the whole "molecular sunburn" thing was kind of a letdown myself.

And yes, I know he had some kind of puppy dog affection for her before she died, but I don't think it was real love. Look how they treated each other when they did get together. That was one twisted, abusive relationship. My point is that Spike knew that without a soul he couldn't really love the way he knew Buffy needed. He literally wasn't capable of it. That's why he got a soul.